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View Poll Results: Where do you believe the proto-Afro-Asiatic urheimat was?

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  • In the northern Middle East (Fertile Crescent), like Elias says

    32 26.02%
  • In Anatolia

    2 1.63%
  • In Arabia

    3 2.44%
  • In the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia and surroundings)

    35 28.46%
  • In Chadic speaking regions, since the Chadic branch has most languages

    1 0.81%
  • Around the Red Sea

    23 18.70%
  • Nile Valley

    6 4.88%
  • Eastern Sahara

    5 4.07%
  • I don't have an opinion

    14 11.38%
  • Martin Bernal's Black Athena!

    2 1.63%
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Thread: The proto-Afro-Asiatics were proto-Caucasoids from the Fertile Crescent (Mashriq)2360 days old

  1. #491
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    As for my own thoughts on this subject: the way I see it, the only way for Afroasiatic to have originated in the Levant is if modern Afroasiatic speakers resemble these pre-Natufian people:

    http://meeting.physanth.org/program/...he-levant.html

    So far the evidence doesn’t look very promising. Based on the facial landmarks used in this study, Ohalo II doesn’t resemble closely any modern population. All modern samples, even the modern Middle Eastern sample, are closer to UP Europeans, Iberomaurusians and Upper Cave, than they are to Ohalo. Also, in the dendrograms Ohalo consistently forms an outgroup to all or most living humans.

    The distinctiveness of pre-Natufians like Ohalo also seems to be supported by genetics. Natufians differ substantially from all farmers in their relationships to Eurasians by being more distant (see Lazaridis et al 2016). Since all these farmers have Basal Eurasian in common, this distance must lie in Natufians’ non-Basal Eurasian ancestry. Since Natufians are mostly Basal Eurasian + WHG-like, their WHG-like ancestry (which is probably related to Ohalo and other pre-Natufians) is the most likely source of this distinctiveness.

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  4. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    As for my own thoughts on this subject: the way I see it, the only way for Afroasiatic to have originated in the Levant is if modern Afroasiatic speakers resemble these pre-Natufian people:
    The Natufians lacked Negroid admixture, and there's also strong genetic support for Levantine farmer admixture into the Horn of Africa:

    According to ancient DNA analyses conducted by Lazaridis et al. (2016) on Natufian skeletal remains from present-day northern Israel, the Natufians carried the Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroups E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a,E1b1b1b2b) (2/5; 40%), CT (2/5; 40%), and E1b1(xE1b1a1,E1b1b1b1) (1/5; 20%).[19] One Natufian individual was also found to belong to the N1b mtDNA haplogroup and two others belonged to the J2a2 mtDNA haplogroup.[29] In terms of autosomal DNA, these Natufians carried around 50% of the Basal Eurasian (BE) and 50% of Western Eurasian Unknown Hunter Gather (UHG) components. However, they were slightly distinct from the northern Anatolian populations that contributed to the peopling of Europe, who had higher Western Hunter Gatherer (WHG) inferred ancestry. Natufians were strongly genetically differentiated[30] from Neolithic Iranian farmers from the Zagros Mountains, who were a mix of Basal Eurasians (up to 62%) and Ancient North Eurasians (ANE). This might suggest that different strains of Basal Eurasians contributed to Natufians and Zagros farmers,[31][32][33] as both Natufians and Zagros farmers descended from different populations of local hunter gatherers. Mating between Natufians, other Neolithic Levantines, Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG), Anatolian and Iranian farmers is believed to have decreased genetic variability among later populations in the Middle East. The scientists suggest that the Levantine early farmers may have spread southward into East Africa, bringing along Western Eurasian and Basal Eurasian ancestral components separate from that which would arrive later in North Africa. No affinity of Natufians to sub-Saharan Africans is evident in the genome-wide analysis, as present-day sub-Saharan Africans do not share more alleles with Natufians than with other ancient Eurasians.[19]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian_culture#Genetics

    So your Natufian argument makes no sense.
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    10th option: North Africa, the homeland of mankind and haplogroup E1b1b.

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    Berbers descend mostly from West Mediterranean Anatolian Neolithics (50%). But they do have some significant (30%) proto-Afro-Asiatic ancestry.

    Assyrians don't. Proto-Semitics were Levantines and were not even pure proto-Afro-Asiatic . Assyrians are mostly language shifters from the Akkadian Empire where all kind of Middle Easterners dominated by Akkadians used to live there.

    Proto-Afro-Asiatics were indeed Mesolithic North Africans. From cultures like Capsian and Taforalt (Maghreb), Halfan culture (Egypt) and Mushabian (North East Egypt/Sinai/Southern Levant )

    Somalis derive like 35-40% of their ancestry from Proto-Afro Asiatic in Neolithic Egypt/Sudan. For Assyrians it's going to be lower than that, more like 15%

    I need Ancient Egyptian remains from the earliest dynastic era to estimate their proto Afro Asiatic amounts.
    The current Ancient Egyptian remains we have are about as Afro-Asiatic as Arabians.

    For now Somalis/Cushitics and, followed by Berbers are the most direct genetic inheritors, then Habeshas, Arabians and Levantines.

    For Ancient Egyptians we'll see.
    Last edited by Dohan.; 2018-12-21 at 22:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dohan. View Post
    Berbers descend mostly from West Mediterranean Anatolian Neolithics (50%). But they do have some significant (30%) proto-Afro-Asiatic ancestry.

    Assyrians don't. Proto-Semitics were Levantines and were not even pure proto-Afro-Asiatic . Assyrians are mostly language shifters from the Akkadian Empire where all kind of Middle Easterners dominated by Akkadians used to live there.

    Proto-Afro-Asiatics were indeed Mesolithic North Africans. From cultures like Capsian and Taforalt (Maghreb), Halfan culture (Egypt) and Mushabian (North East Egypt/Sinai/Southern Levant )

    Somalis derive like 35-40% of their ancestry from Proto-Afro Asiatic in Neolithic Egypt/Sudan. For Assyrians it's going to be lower than that, more like 15-20%.

    I need Ancient Egyptian remains from the earliest dynastic era to estimate their proto Afro Asiatic amounts.
    The current Ancient Egyptian remains we have are about as Afro-Asiatic as Arabians.

    For now Somalis and, followed by Berbers are the most direct genetic inheritors, then Habeshas, Arabians and Levantines.

    For Ancient Egyptians we'll see.
    What are you basing the somali proto-afro-asiatic percentages on? Taforalt? Natufians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    What are you basing the somali proto-afro-asiatic percentages on? Taforalt? Natufians?
    Somalis can be modeled as 36% Natufian - like, 40% Dinka, 10% or so Yemenite Jewish-like.

    Obviously we lack ancient DNA from Neoltihic Egypt and Sudan. So the Natufian score Somalis are getting is likely linked to their Proto-Cushitics from Neolithic Egypt /Sudan being mostly related to Mesolithic Egyptians, Natufians and Neolithic Levantines whom were all closely related.

    The Yemenite Jewish ancestry of Somalis is mixed, but does contain Natufian/Neolithic Levant (and thus Proto-Afro-Asiatic ancestry).

    So it's hard to tell roughly but you are definitely in the realm of 35-40% Afrasian(that's not your total amount of West Eurasian though, Yemenite Jewish-like ancestry includes some extra - Iranian Chalcholithic and Anatolian Neolithic).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dohan. View Post
    Somalis can be modeled as 36% Natufian - like, 40% Dinka, 10% or so Yemenite Jewish-like.

    Obviously we lack ancient DNA from Neoltihic Egypt and Sudan. So the Natufian score Somalis are getting is likely linked to their Proto-Cushitics from Neolithic Egypt /Sudan being mostly related to Mesolithic Egyptians, Natufians and Neolithic Levantines whom were all closely related.

    The Yemenite Jewish ancestry of Somalis is mixed, but does contain Natufian/Neolithic Levant (and thus Proto-Afro-Asiatic ancestry).

    So it's hard to tell roughly but you are definitely in the realm of 35-40% Afrasian(that's not your total amount of West Eurasian though, Yemenite Jewish-like ancestry includes some extra - Iranian Chalcholithic and Anatolian Neolithic).
    I agree with you but who do you think would plot closer to the proto-afroasiatics considering Somalis carry divergent SSA ancestry.Amazigh or the Arabians of the peninsula? Both carry foreign ancestry like Iran_CHL,WHG,Steepe and Anatolia_N ancestry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meygaag View Post
    I agree with you but who do you think would plot closer to the proto-afroasiatics considering Somalis carry divergent SSA ancestry.Amazigh or the Arabians of the peninsula? Both carry foreign ancestry like Iran_CHL,WHG,Steepe and Anatolia_N ancestry
    Yes.

    Proto-Afro-Asiatics are bound to cluster closer to Egyptians and Arabians than to Berbers overall. I think they will more or less be similar to the current Taforalt and Natufian genome we have. They are often shifted slightly towards Bejas, but largely closer to Arabians.

    As I mentionned, some people believe the most Ancient Egyptians were the closest.
    Last edited by Dohan.; 2018-12-21 at 23:48.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dohan. View Post
    Yes.

    Proto-Afro-Asiatics are bound to cluster closer to Egyptians and Arabians than to Berbers overall. I think they will more or less be similar to the current Taforalt and Natufian genome we have. They are often shifted slightly towards Bejas, but largely closer to Arabians.

    As I mentionned, some people believe the most Ancient Egyptians were the closest.
    I read somewhere that the Kerma culture (Ancient Cushitic speakers) were closest morphologically to Predynastic Egyptians.


    What's your opinion on the C-Group culture (ancient berbers) of Sudan? Do you think they would lack the whg/western med/extra anatolian ancestry that current berbers have? I would assume they were more rich in terms of Natufian ancestry.

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    The early inhabitants of the Nubia region were speakers of Afroasiatic languages. Genetically, the Nubians are 39.41%-47.73% Eurasian and their Y-DNA profile resembles that of the Saudis. Around 44% of Nubians in Sudan carry haplogroup J1, followed by E1b1b (23%). J1-M267 is the most prominent haplogroup in Saudi Arabia (11.6 ± 1.9 ky) and around 14% of the Saudi Arabia Y-chromosome pool is typical of African biogeographic ancestry such as E1b1b. Coalescence time for haplogroup J1 in Saudi Arabia is the oldest in the Middle East and Arabia is the likely source of the Nubians' Y-chromosome pool. Haplogroup J1 fits an expansion pattern for the Afroasiatic languages and J1 can be the primal genetic marker for Afroasiatic speakers in Africa. On the other hand, 83% of Nubians carry African mtDNA haplogroup L. The sex bias of their DNA profile shows that most Nubian migrants to Sudan were males, who intermarried with local African women. Local Sudanese populations historically have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants.

    Nubians are an admixed group with gene-flow from outside of Africa

    The strongest signal of admixture into Nubian populations came from Eurasian populations (S10 Fig, S2 Table) and was likely quite extensive: 39.41%-47.73% (f4-ratio, Z-scores between 22.8 and 26.7 Fig 3B, S9 Fig). Interestingly, the Nubians showed the highest level of allelic richness, number of private alleles and shared private alleles (ADZE, between Danagla and Halfawieen, S12 Fig) among all Sudanese and South Sudanese groups. This observation together with a smaller total length of runs of homozygosity, between lengths of 0.5–1 kilobases, points to substantial admixture in Nubians (Fig 4). Hence, the Nubians can be seen as a group with substantial genetic material relating to Nilotes that later have received much gene-flow from Eurasians (likely Middle Eastern) and from East Africans (Fig 2).

    From historic documents, we know that the ancient Egyptians were in contact with the ancient Nubians that inhabited the Nile area in the north of modern-day Sudan. Our study suggests that the later migration followed along the Nile, likely being held up by the Nubians until the fall of the Kingdom of Makuria in the 14th Century [4]. Following that historic event, the Arab expansion spread further southward, which can be seen in a succession of admixture events that occur more recent in time as one travels south. Many populations in Sudan that self-identity as Arab, displayed a population history of local Sudanese populations that have admixed with incoming Eurasian populations, and adopted the language and culture of the incoming migrants. In fact most populations from northeast Sudan (Nubian, Arab and Beja groups) seem to be a mixture of Middle Eastern and local northeast African genetic components, although only the Arab groups shifted to the Semitic languages. Cultural and linguistic replacement following the Arab conquest has been described previously in populations of the Maghreb [37, 38, 43].

    https://journals.plos.org/plosgeneti...l.pgen.1006976
    Last edited by ThirdTerm; 2019-01-14 at 21:31.

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