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Thread: West Slavic admixture in Ukraine (Mielnik-Sikorska et al. 2012)1732 days old

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    No one knows who the Lugii were, but we can now see that there's been genetic continuity in what is now Poland for much longer than the migration period, because R1a-M458 and R1a-L365 are native to Poland. So the people of the Lusatian Culture could have easily been the ancestors of the Lugii, for the most part anyway.
    ok on Hgs , but the following tribes made up the Lugii confederation ( some call it Lygii )

    HELVECOINES
    INAHARVALES
    OMANNI
    CORCONII
    SILINGAE ( WAS ALSO IN THE VANDILI CONFEDERATION ) ( bordering with HASDINGI VANDALS)
    OSI ( MOST NORTHERN ILLYRIAN TRIBE, some call it a Celto-illyri Tribe)
    COGNI
    VISBUGII
    ARII
    DIDUNI
    ELYSII
    ADI

    As you can see there are many tribes from 350BC to 10AD , what other markers are there?

    other confederations in Eastern Germany and Poland where, Vandili, Suevi ( suebi ) , Catti and Alemanni

    many different google books, have 4 different peoples, ...pre-slavic, pre-germanic, Illyrian and Thracian.
    PF=(37% Basque, French, Orcadian, Spanish) (63% Tuscan)
    Dodecad=N_Italian 7.20, O_Italian 10.29, North_Italian 10.61, Tuscan 12.12
    Euro K13=North Euro 39%, Med 34%, Caucasus 11%, West Central Asia 8%,
    MDLP=Paleo_Euro 29%, Celto-Germanic 21%, East Euro 14%, Caucasian 13%
    MDLP22=North Italian 1.73, Bulgarian 6.42, Romanian 7.47, Swiss 7.47

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinkar View Post
    ok on Hgs , but the following tribes made up the Lugii confederation ( some call it Lygii )

    HELVECOINES
    INAHARVALES
    OMANNI
    CORCONII
    SILINGAE ( WAS ALSO IN THE VANDILI CONFEDERATION ) ( bordering with HASDINGI VANDALS)
    OSI ( MOST NORTHERN ILLYRIAN TRIBE, some call it a Celto-illyri Tribe)
    COGNI
    VISBUGII
    ARII
    DIDUNI
    ELYSII
    ADI

    As you can see there are many tribes from 350BC to 10AD , what other markers are there?

    other confederations in Eastern Germany and Poland where, Vandili, Suevi ( suebi ) , Catti and Alemanni

    many different google books, have 4 different peoples, ...pre-slavic, pre-germanic, Illyrian and Thracian.
    There's no guarantee that this information is correct. A lot of these old Roman texts are based on pure speculation and even fiction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    There's no guarantee that this information is correct. A lot of these old Roman texts are based on pure speculation and even fiction.
    Thats true of all history written by everyone.

    Then check DNATribes on STRs for eastern europe group and the highest is 32% thracian, where do we stand with this?
    DNAtribes has a lot of interesting reads even if to me it seems unusual

    Then again, the book , Europe before history is an interesting read on the area in question
    PF=(37% Basque, French, Orcadian, Spanish) (63% Tuscan)
    Dodecad=N_Italian 7.20, O_Italian 10.29, North_Italian 10.61, Tuscan 12.12
    Euro K13=North Euro 39%, Med 34%, Caucasus 11%, West Central Asia 8%,
    MDLP=Paleo_Euro 29%, Celto-Germanic 21%, East Euro 14%, Caucasian 13%
    MDLP22=North Italian 1.73, Bulgarian 6.42, Romanian 7.47, Swiss 7.47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Otto Prohaska View Post
    Yes. I think it's associated with the Lusatian Culture and/or the Lugii Confederation.
    With this I agree. Too bad we don't know more about the Lugii Confederation.
    Last edited by muso; 2013-01-03 at 11:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinkar View Post
    You cannot have both, lusatian culture began 1300BC
    Lugii tribe did not form until 350BC

    The gap is too huge, plus Lugii are a mix of many ethnic people

    - - - Updated - - -



    Lusatian culture was present before germanic and slavic people where there, there was someone else
    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    No one knows who the Lugii were, but we can now see that there's been genetic continuity in what is now Poland for much longer than the migration period, because R1a-M458 and R1a-L365 are native to Poland. So the people of the Lusatian Culture could have easily been the ancestors of the Lugii, for the most part anyway.
    What he said. ---^

    1,000 years is hardly a large span of time in the great scheme of things. The population of Poland today is largely constituted of the same peoples that were there 1,000 years ago. Why should we make an assumption that there was some great displacement of peoples in the thousand or so years between 1300 BC and 350 BC?

    I think it likely that M458 and possibly L0129 experienced their greatest dispersal within the Lusatian Culture and that their dispersal through Central Europe was continued by the tribes of the Lugii Confederation.
    Last edited by Otto Prohaska; 2013-01-03 at 12:03.

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    ‘Lugii’ is cognate with ‘Lahi-‘, ‘Lechi-‘, ‘Ludzi-‘, ‘Luży-‘, ‘Luczi-‘, ‘Lanki-“, ‘Luna(*Lukna) ‘which denote: “people”, “light”, “rays” “bright”, “shine” in Slavic , and are also applied as names of West-Slavic Lechitic i.e. Polish and Polabian tribes.

    It is also cognate with Sanskrit ‘rucz-‘’light, ray” and ‘loka ’-“world” and Greek ‘leuk’ “white”.

    ‘Lugii’ most likely were the confederation of Lechitic i.e. West Slavic tribes and their name is most likely related to their common religion: fire and solar cult and the believe that Lechitic people(Lahi/Lugi) originated from the Sun/Fire God (‘Ogni’, Sanskrit ‘Agni’) which is confirmed by many historic evidence among other Slavic tribes.
    That linguistic evidence fits very well with genetic and anthropological evidence IMO.
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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    I don't think the straightforward dismissal of Pliny (with his huge list of references), Tacitus, Strabo and other old classical writers is a very useful approach. They may have made mistake here and there, but the intimation that they were completely wrong about everything is just a non-starter for me. I don't see where one proves the theory of the origin of M-458 by ancient DNA. (as yet). Until that is done, everything is speculative at best (and that is being kind-- the proper word is rather "fantastic") (:=))

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    ‘Lugii’ is cognate with ‘Lahi-‘, ‘Lechi-‘, ‘Ludzi-‘, ‘Luży-‘, ‘Luczi-‘, ‘Lanki-“, ‘Luna(*Lukna)
    Yeah. Right...

    The name Lugii is clearly germanic or celtic.

    It makes me wonder if most posting poles here are actually genuinely interested in genetics, linguistics and so on or it´s just about nationalistic-self-esteem boosting.

    East slavic is older than west?
    Last edited by blue3000; 2013-01-03 at 13:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    It makes me wonder if most posting poles here are actually genuinely interested in genetics, linquistics and so on or it´s just about nationalistic-self-esteem boosting.
    Maybe you just discovered a major conspiracy? But it looks like you're heavily outgunned, so good luck trying to stop it. FYI, our ultimate goal is world domination.


    The history of slavs in the light of Y chromosome and mtDNA variability

    Mielnik - Sikorska M, Daca P, Marcin Woźniak, Malyarchuk BA, Derenko MV, Skonieczna K, Grzybowski T (Bydgoszcz, Poland)

    To explore the origin of Eastern Europeans we investigated Y chromosome and mitochondrial H5 haplogroup diversity in population samples from Ukraine and other Eastern European countries. Y chromosome diversity was analyzed using a panel of 11 SNP polymorphisms (including M458 – so called “Western Slavic marker”) and 17 Y-STRs on 154 DNA samples from Ukrainians. These results were compared to previously published data from Slavic and non-Slavic populations. Mitochondrial DNA control-region sequences of about 2700 samples obtained from Eastern (Russians and Ukrainians) and Western Slavs (Czechs, Poles and Slovaks) were used to select 51 samples representing mitochondrial H5 haplogroup. For these mtDNAs the entire genome sequences were determined. Together with published data we have collected 210 complete mtDNA sequences belonging to the H5 haplogroup. Thus, improvement of the resolution of H5 haplogroup phylogeny and evolutionary age estimation of H5 subhaplogroups were possible. We were able to identify a number of new subhaplogroups (i.e. H5a1a1, H5a1r, H5a1s and others) as well as to show that the founder H5 clade (12-15 ky old) is mainly represented by individuals from southern Europe. We also showed some subclusters (H5a1a, H5a1f, H5e1a, H5a2 and H5u), which are mainly represented by residents of central and eastern Europe. The evolutionary age of these subhaplogorups was dated between 2-5 ky. The overall picture of Y chromosome and mtDNA diversity in Central Europe corresponds well with origin and later expansion of Corded Ware European culture. Thus, we suggest that genetic continuity existed in Central Europe between Bronze Age and Middle Ages when the earliest Slavic tribes were described.
    Last edited by Polako; 2013-01-03 at 13:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blue3000 View Post
    East slavic is older than west?
    East Slavic is not older than West Slavic. It's just that Slavic as such is not that old. I see it as a historic child of Baltic, as spoken by Venedic and Bastarnian throats. And I know of no archaeological culture that can be associated with Slavs proper until the so-called "Kyivan culture" which was formed in the aftermath of the destruction of Zarubinia by the Sarmats in the mid-1rst c. CE. Genetics is another thing altogether. I can understand how historical circumstances made "Slavs" out of R1a and I2 (and other) populations. But I don't as yet see any evidence associating this process with some "leading" haplogroup. And I'm still waiting for proof as to the geographical origin of the current leading Slavic markers.

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