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Thread: West Slavic admixture in Ukraine (Mielnik-Sikorska et al. 2012)1732 days old

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    Default West Slavic admixture in Ukraine (Mielnik-Sikorska et al. 2012)

    This is the second article published recently which argues for West Slavic genetic influence in East Slavs. The question is, does this influence include the spread of the proto-Slavs from Poland to the east, or later movements of West Slavs from Poland or even Germany to Belarus and Ukraine, or both? In any case, it certainly looks like M458 (R1a1a7) comes from either Poland or eastern Germany.

    We have tested a sample of 154 unrelated males from Lviv region (Ukraine) for 11 Y-chromosomal single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) and 17 Y-chromosomal STR loci (DYS19, DYS385a, DYS385b, DYS389I, DYS389II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393, DYS437, DYS438, DYS439, DYS448, DYS456, DYS458, DYS635, YGATA_H4.1). Haplotype and haplogroup diversity values were calculated for the population under study. Genetic distances (RST) to 9 other Slavic populations were calculated based on 12 Y-STR loci. Haplotype frequencies and MDS plots were constructed based on genetic distances. Haplogroup frequency patterns revealed in Ukraine are similar to those characteristic of other European populations. However, it also allowed for identification a specific genetic component in Ukrainian sample which seems to originate from areas dwelled by Western Slavs, i.e. subhaplogroup R1a1a7, at frequency of 13.65%. Analysis of RST distances and AMOVA revealed high level of heterogeneity between Slavic populations inhabiting the south and north part of Europe, determined geographically rather than by linguistic factors. It has also been found a closer similarity (in the values of RST) between Ukrainian and Slovak populations than between Ukrainians and other Slavic population samples.
    Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population

    Full study


    See also...

    Belarusian R-M458 and the Polabian connection
    Last edited by Polako; 2012-12-27 at 23:27.

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    This is interesting and would be related to the appearance of Vends in Pskov region, some time in the 5th century, moving from the south, hence finnish venäläinen <- venäd for russians. Based on linguistic results this migration is rather early in terms of slavic development phase: "Zaliznyak therefore divides East Slavic area into two dialectal groupings: Proto-Novgorodian-Pskovian on one side, singled out chiefly on the basis of two features of the lack of second palatalization of velars and the ending -e in nominative singular of masculine o-stems, and all the remaining East Slavic dialects on the other side." Now, the question is, do we find these same West Slavic genetic features in the north?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Novgorod_dialect
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    I think what you're looking for is a rise in R1a1a7 frequency near Finland? If so, it seems something like that exists...


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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    I think what you're looking for is a rise in R1a1a7 frequency near Finland? If so, it seems something like that exists...
    Indeed, allthough the spesific impact I'm trying to pinpoint is probably just a part of many migrations including for instance R1a1a7. This one should look something like this, I'd guess and might be related to the role of these West Slavs in the multiethnic realm of Oium:



    P.S. actually, thinking of that, it shouldn't be impossible that these Vends of Pskov were refugees from the areas next to Krim, for some kind of a steppe connection they seemed to have.
    Last edited by Huckleberry Finn; 2012-12-26 at 15:29.
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    Out of curiosity. Are there any R1a (458's) among Lithuanians and Latvians, and if so in what proportion?
    And as an aside. I see the Mielnik article lumps all I's together. Presumably most would be I2's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dmytro View Post
    Out of curiosity. Are there any R1a (458's) among Lithuanians and Latvians, and if so in what proportion?
    And as an aside. I see the Mielnik article lumps all I's together. Presumably most would be I2's.
    Lithuanians average 44.9% R1a, with the peak in the South - 61.8% among southern Aukshtaits (though there were only 34 southern Aukshtaits in the study so the actual number can be slightly smaller) and 50% among southern Zhemaits. That's about the same as Russia (46.7%), and the Southern average's about the same as Poland (54.5%). Latvians have 39.9%.

    If we consider R1a the only true original I-E. haplogroup (what i'm inclined to do), it means modern Lithuanians have about the same amount of I-E. genetic ancestry as Russians and Polish. The difference is, Lithuanians have much greater % of N1c (36.7% in Lithuanians, 13.9% in Russians, 4.5% in Polish), indicating different addmixture to the original I-E. population (mostly Finnic in Lithuanian case, mostly non-Finnic European in the Polish one, both in the Russian one).

    Source: http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/K...cuite.2004.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    This is the second article published recently which argues for West Slavic genetic influence in East Slavs. The question is, does this influence include the spread of the proto-Slavs from Poland to the east, or later movements of West Slavs from Poland or even Germany to Belarus and Ukraine, or both? In any case, it certainly looks like M458 (R1a1a7) comes from either Poland or eastern Germany.



    Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population

    Full study


    See also...

    Belarusian R-M458 and the Polabian connection
    David, if I am reading the study correctly, those in Western Ukraine are closer to Slovakians than other parts of the Ukraine:
    Table 4
    RST calculation for 9 Y-STR loci available for 10 Slavic populations, including 5 Ukrainian samples.
    1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
    1. Bratislava (Slovakia)  +++   ++   + + 
    2. Central Bohemia (Czech Republic) 0.018  + +++ +++ +++ ++ ++ ++ +++
    3. Ivanava (Belarus) 0.010 0.0449       ++ +
    4. Kiev (Ukraine) 0.003 0.0334 0.0074  +++   + ++ +
    5. Lublin (Poland) 0.024 0.0583 0.0075 0.0198  + +++ + +++ +++
    6. Lugansk (Ukraine) 0.002 0.046 0.012 0.003 0.017   + ++ +
    7. Lviv-1 (Ukraine) 0.004 0.018 0.024 0.002 0.042 0.007  ++  
    8. Orel (Russia) 0.017 0.026 0.002 0.019 0.012 0.025 0.032  +++ +++
    9. Uzhgorod (Ukraine) 0.023 0.032 0.073 0.039 0.104 0.044 0.007 0.082  
    10. Lviv-2 (Ukraine) 0.005 0.028 0.041 0.011 0.056 0.018 0.003 0.052 0.002 

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    Quote Originally Posted by muso View Post
    David, if I am reading the study correctly, those in Western Ukraine are closer to Slovakians than other parts of the Ukraine:
    Not surprising...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusyns

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    This is the second article published recently which argues for West Slavic genetic influence in East Slavs. The question is, does this influence include the spread of the proto-Slavs from Poland to the east, or later movements of West Slavs from Poland or even Germany to Belarus and Ukraine, or both? In any case, it certainly looks like M458 (R1a1a7) comes from either Poland or eastern Germany.



    Genetic data from Y chromosome STR and SNP loci in Ukrainian population

    Full study


    See also...

    Belarusian R-M458 and the Polabian connection
    you seem to be against all polish and russian in regards to this, they claim
    Since 2007, I have been calling them P type and N type. P type is now known to be more than 98% equivalent to the haplogroup Ra1a1b1a1a(L260). N type is more than 95% equivalent to the paragroup M458+L260-.
    New topic 17 Oct 2012.
    L1029 was a new SNP last March. L1029 provides a branch of M458, added to the ISOGG tree this year. The other branch is L260 (update next topic). L260 was discovered in 2010. Most M458+ L260- samples are coming out L1029+.


    As below are more comments
    http://dna-genealogy.info/

    which do you refer to as there is a split between baltic and slavic in regards to this

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Huckleberry Finn View Post
    Indeed, allthough the spesific impact I'm trying to pinpoint is probably just a part of many migrations including for instance R1a1a7. This one should look something like this, I'd guess and might be related to the role of these West Slavs in the multiethnic realm of Oium:



    P.S. actually, thinking of that, it shouldn't be impossible that these Vends of Pskov were refugees from the areas next to Krim, for some kind of a steppe connection they seemed to have.
    why was this map used?...for convienance, because it refers to gothic lands in an article I saw.
    green = ostergotten and vastergotten
    pink = gotland
    red = goths and gepids
    orange = goths, bastanae and getae
    PF=(37% Basque, French, Orcadian, Spanish) (63% Tuscan)
    Dodecad=N_Italian 7.20, O_Italian 10.29, North_Italian 10.61, Tuscan 12.12
    Euro K13=North Euro 39%, Med 34%, Caucasus 11%, West Central Asia 8%,
    MDLP=Paleo_Euro 29%, Celto-Germanic 21%, East Euro 14%, Caucasian 13%
    MDLP22=North Italian 1.73, Bulgarian 6.42, Romanian 7.47, Swiss 7.47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trinkar View Post
    As below are more comments
    http://dna-genealogy.info/
    In regard to this link, M458 (and L1029, for that matter) are found very infrequently in Northern Italy. I think your Serbundt descendants are the only one. Therefore, I would not call M458 or L1029 Germanic. It was present in what is now eastern Germany in antiquity, and is possible that the y dna could have come to Italy with the Longbards, as they were likely a multi-tribal federation.

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