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Thread: Libertarian Society?2456 days old

  1. #21
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    Non-aggression Principles derive from New Testament Christianity. This is Liberalism, not Libertarianism.

    Libertarianism only protects "Human Rights" through a Constitution.

    The US Constitution does not state: "Thou shalt not murder!" or "Thou shalt not steal!" It is not a moralist document. It is a secular, Protestant Christian, politickal document. The US Founders attempted to separate Church and State. Because they did not want a repeat of European history, where Catholicism = State.

    You are thinking of Liberalism, not Libertarianism.
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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unome View Post
    Non-aggression Principles derive from New Testament Christianity. This is Liberalism, not Libertarianism.

    Libertarianism only protects "Human Rights" through a Constitution.

    The US Constitution does not state: "Thou shalt not murder!" or "Thou shalt not steal!" It is not a moralist document. It is a secular, Protestant Christian, politickal document. The US Founders attempted to separate Church and State. Because they did not want a repeat of European history, where Catholicism = State.

    You are thinking of Liberalism, not Libertarianism.
    I just proved beyond all doubt that I am right, yet you still deny it?

    The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    And by the way, libertarianism and classical liberalism are the same thing.

    Modern liberalism is different.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    I just proved beyond all doubt that I am right, yet you still deny it?

    The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one.
    Yes an English Liberal from the Labor Party is going to lecture a US Citizen on Libertarianism…

    You must be a fan of irony. It maybe true that John Locke invented Libertarianism. But it took the power of Yankees and George Washington, WASP aristocrats to put Libertarianism into motion. You are stuck in a backward world, Jonny. Try stepping out from under the yoke of your Queen for once.
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    jr1 wrote: …if a pig's born in a stable is it a horse?
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    Acquisitorz wrote: Is a chain made of gold a nice chain when its placed to restrict your brain?
    Archangel wrote: The meek shall inherit the Earth… because the strong shall inherit the Stars!
    Wojewoda wrote: Burqas are for women, what guns are for men: Great Equalizer.
    Kwestos wrote: I don't know what a commie is to be honest. A kid of a rich lawyer in New York who wants to be cool, or a desperate peasant in Bolivia who protests because government stole his land…



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  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unome View Post
    Yes an English Liberal from the Labor Party is going to lecture a US Citizen on Libertarianism…

    You must be a fan of irony. It maybe true that John Locke invented Libertarianism. But it took the power of Yankees and George Washington, WASP aristocrats to put Libertarianism into motion. You are stuck in a backward world, Jonny. Try stepping out from under the yoke of your Queen for once.
    So now you resort to poor trolling to deflect from the fact that you were incorrect.

    If you think the United States is a libertarian society then I retract my earlier statement, you are stupid.

  6. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
    So now you resort to poor trolling to deflect from the fact that you were incorrect.
    I wasn't incorrect. You were incorrect about Non-Aggression principles, Homesteading, and Squatting Rights.

    "Non-Aggression" is laughable. Think of how many dead Native Indians and graves there are in the United States, as a direct result of Libertarianism and Liberalism? Manifest Destiny is a Liberal ideology.

    Aren't you a Labor Party member?
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    jr1 wrote: …if a pig's born in a stable is it a horse?
    Wickedgirl wrote: In my personal opinion only radical feminists really want absolute gender equality. Normal women don't, they want to be women …what I believe in is the very essence of femininity.
    Acquisitorz wrote: Is a chain made of gold a nice chain when its placed to restrict your brain?
    Archangel wrote: The meek shall inherit the Earth… because the strong shall inherit the Stars!
    Wojewoda wrote: Burqas are for women, what guns are for men: Great Equalizer.
    Kwestos wrote: I don't know what a commie is to be honest. A kid of a rich lawyer in New York who wants to be cool, or a desperate peasant in Bolivia who protests because government stole his land…



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  7. #26
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    Jonny is correct that the non-aggression principle is one concept that libertarians agree upon and is generally considered the cornerstone of libertariansim.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_libertarianism

    Libertarianism is generally considered to be the political philosophy, or group of philosophies, which emphasizes freedom, individual liberty, and voluntary association. It is often summarized along the lines that people have the right to live their lives as they choose so long as they do not initiate force or fraud against others, an idea known as the Non-Aggression Principle.
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  9. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unome View Post
    "Non-Aggression" is laughable. Think of how many dead Native Indians and graves there are in the United States, as a direct result of Libertarianism and Liberalism?
    You don't even understand what the non-aggression principle is.

    This is getting embarassing for you now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rochefaton View Post
    Jonny is correct that the non-aggression principle is one concept that libertarians can agree upon.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_libertarianism
    Of course it is, he could have found that out in 30 seconds.

  10. #28
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    The Non-Aggression Principle is a New Testament Christian moral ideology. The only reason this is included into Libertarianism is because WASPs, Protestant Christians, carried Libertarianism into the New World.

    But there is nothing like that inherent within Libertarianism.

    In a Libertarian society, two men can have a duel to the death, by Consent, by personal Choice, and it would be legal. In this particular case Murder would become legalized. It was the Christians who denied this. Because the Christians intervene in Libertarianism by substituting a lack of moral ethics with the New Testament and the Ten Commandments.

    This conflates Human Rights. Because on one hand "nobody has the right to murder" but on the other hand, why not if two adults are Consenting for it?

    This also spills-over into Doctor Assisted Suicide (DAS). DAS is legal in a Libertarian society, but illegal in a Liberal society. This is the key difference.

    In a Libertarian society, a contract trumps Human Rights. Thus it cannot be "illegal" to commit suicide.

    But it is illegal to commit suicide in a Liberal society. That is the main difference between "Classical Liberalism" and "Postmodern Liberalism". The latter has a moralist and dogmatic slant/bias to it. That is because of the Protestant Christian influence.
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    jr1 wrote: …if a pig's born in a stable is it a horse?
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    Archangel wrote: The meek shall inherit the Earth… because the strong shall inherit the Stars!
    Wojewoda wrote: Burqas are for women, what guns are for men: Great Equalizer.
    Kwestos wrote: I don't know what a commie is to be honest. A kid of a rich lawyer in New York who wants to be cool, or a desperate peasant in Bolivia who protests because government stole his land…



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    ^ Talking complete shit. Anyone who reads these last 3 pages can see what an arrogant fool you are.

    My work is done.

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    It is correct to somehow reduce the fundamental principals of Libertarianism to a Contracts based Socieity which is guided by a fundamental Law which is present in a Constitution. However, one has to be careful because one can incur in some reductionisms of the likes of ''what is signed in a contract is absolutely binding for ever''; specially regarding American Capitalist Society post 'the great depression'. (Note; The points brough over by Jonny about the influence of the 'Non-Agression Principle' within Libertarianism has to be qualified according to the specificity of any given particular case given that it is nowadays more like a 'floating singnifier' within the multiplicity of Libertarian discourses that have been and still are historically put into circulation).

    A good and usual example of how NAP is trumped in social practice-particularly when Jurists objectify the Vices of Consent in Contracts- is when there is a discrepancy present between the internal will and what is externalized and manifested by what is agreed by the parts who engage in a Contract. This is precisely why both Common Law and Civilist Legal Traditions grounded on Constituional principles (Substantive Due Process and Due Process plainly) try to prevent these 'Vices of Consent or Agreement' by leaving open space for interpretation after two parts are bonded in a Contract. The Phase of the interpretation of Contract. Enter the Concept of Good Faith and the interrelation of this concept with the Rebus Sic Stantibusis- which is the legal doctrine allowing for treaties to become inapplicable because of a fundamental change of circumstances- and Pacta Sunt Servanda or in laymans terms 'agreements must be kept'.

    After the Home Builiding & Loan Ass'n v. Blaisdell this apparently fixed and inalterable conception of Contracting by which Libertarian Societies are known for changed; this was a case in which the U.S. Supreme Court validated a Statute which allowed the court to post-pone the execution of home loans and extend the 'redemption' period for the duration of the period declared as an Emergency. As soon as the crisis subsided Home Owners would be subjected then to the original terms of agreement present in the Contract. In this type of situations where there is a 'suspension of the terms by which the contract was put originally into efficacy'' it is usually restricted to when the conditions outside the original causes which served as the base for the agreement have changed so much that one of the parts is inevitably affected more than the other part. This is therefore also a principle which derives from the general principle of Equity (The lack of equivalence of the 'things to be delivered' were affected by variables which were not present in the original time of the contract). The courts try to remedy this by using the Rebus Sis Stantibus Clause; there is a need of unpredictability of the situation outside the contract changing= If one could have been diligent and forseen it then it can't be applied, therefore, this Clause is not easily justified in its application.

    Why do I menioned this? I mention it because the Rebus Sis Stanibus Clause fell out of fashion for many many years particularly in Europe and to a similar degree in the rest of the Western World. It was deemed by Libertarians pre Great Depression as a handicap to what was agreed; to many of them it seemed to permeate social, economical and judicial Life with a lack of seriousness which ultimately broke the principle of our societies (Mainly Good Faith; Bona Fide Conduct).

    Post Great Depression this apparently misconstrued and reductionist conception of the 'Rebus Sic Stantibus Clause' was embraced by the likes of Roosevelt and the rest of the Western World which reached the conclusion that sometimes Contracts can be subject to Revision in order to protect Constitutional Rights when one part is inequivalently more affected than another regardless if one part (the most beneffited) claimed to put into effectiveness strcitly what was agreed. In fact, in the present many courts would deem this latter attitude and claim as a sign of Legal Bad Faith.

    Theorists who adhere to this type of conception of the world of Contracts and that must be read are Corbin in the U.S. of A and P.S. Atiyah in England. Read: The Rise and Fall of Freedom of Contract (Orxford Clarendon Press 1979).

    We have to remember that this change came about as a product of the Great Depression and its effects on how the courts saw Contract agreements. Let's review the most fundamental aspects of it.

    1. The Social function of the contract has waned. This is due to the inherent intervention of the State in all aspects of Economy- and life- control of prices, fixation of salaries, distribution of benefits (Wellfare state).

    2. In our times 'free will' or selection is given a lesser importance as a source of rights and responsabilities and consequently more importance is given to imposed rights and duties (non-voluntary; G.Gilmore The Death of Contract).

    The best example of this is the current

    - - - Updated - - -

    Adhesion Contract.

    - - - Updated - - -

    In Conclusion NAP is as I stated before a mere 'floating signifier' noweadays concerning the multiplicity of ways in which Libertarianism embraces it as a concept. For those that don't know a 'floating signifier' is:

    1. Accordin to Levi-Strauss: ''to represent an undetermined quantity of signification, in itself void of meaning and thus apt to receive any meaning".

    2. According to Daniel Chandler: "a signifier with a vague, highly variable, unspecifiable or non-existent signified".

    In Wikipedia's terms: As such a "floating siginifier" may "mean different things to different people: they may stand for many or even any signifieds; they may mean whatever their interpreters want them to mean." Such a floating signifier - which is said to possess "symbolic value zero" - results necessary to "allow symbolic thought to operate despite the contradiction inherent in it".

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