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Thread: The analysis of racial structure of early dynastic populations in Egypt2410 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ether View Post
    It's not just Somalis who show this bias, but also Afars and to a lesser degree Eastern Oromos. The only reasonable correlation I see is lower Omotic ancestry.
    Perhaps but I'd wait until we see Afars from Djibouti, Eritrea and Ethiopia (Awash valley) sampled & we have their Omotic levels. And honestly, hair textures aside-> I don't think Afars and Somalis look as alike as most people think. There's a lot of overlap but I can see a difference tbh. This doesn't need to translate into much or anything at all genetically but we'll see.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager View Post
    Is there not some kind of cline from more Horner to more Eastern Mediterranean as we pass northwards along the Nile valley?
    Yes somewhat although the black egyptian array is diverse and not just horner-like.
    Last edited by Dohan.; 2015-05-15 at 00:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ether View Post
    Speculatively, they were likely very dark and facially similar to the Nilotes but without the extreme peppercorn hair and probably a lower median nasal index.
    Can you give male and female picture examples of what you speculate they looked like? How about the West Eurasians who introgressed?
    K=47 Results
    78.92% African
    • 59.05% West-African
    • 8.36% Central-African_HG
    • 3.32% East-African_HG
    • 2.22% Nilotic
    • 2.11% Omotic(?)
    • 1.78% Sahelian
    • 1.05% South-African_HG
    • 1.03% Kushitic(?)

    11.84% West Eurasian
    • 3.79% North-Sea_Germanic
    • 2.15% East-Euro
    • 1.39% Scando-Germanic
    • 1.26% Paleo-Balkan
    • 0.88% Central-Med
    • 0.54% NW-Indian(?)
    • 0.42% East-Iberian
    • 0.39% Baltic
    • 0.14% West-Med
    • 0.17% North-Iberian
    • 0.02% East-Med

    9.92% Native/Indigenous to Americas
    • 4.59% Meso-Amerind
    • 2.14% Amazonian
    • 2.01% Andean
    • 1.15% North-Amerind
    • 0.02% South-Indian(?)
    • 0.01% Tibetan(?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    Perhaps but I'd wait until we see Afars from Djibouti, Eritrea and Ethiopia (Awash valley) sampled & we have their Omotic levels. And honestly, hair textures aside-> I don't think Afars and Somalis look as alike as most people think. There's a lot of overlap but I can see a difference tbh. This doesn't need to translate into much or anything at all genetically but we'll see.
    I agree, for me Afar look more Ethiopian or perhaps Eritrean than they do Somali.
    They simply don't have that specific phenotype I associate with Somalis.
    Somalis are really a special case of their own. Really hard to pin point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by voyager View Post
    Do you have a link to this book or can you summarise its findings very briefly?
    I havent read the entire book, I got it for the main reason of getting the details on the aDNA results. The Chapters are summerized here. I may get around to posting some images but dont hold your breath for it.
    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/prehistoric/rev..._03_lernia.htm

    Chapter 11, by Emiliano Bruner, Francesca Ricci and Giorgo Manzi, consists of geometric morphometric study of the shape of a sub-sample of the material described in the previous chapter. The sub-sample consists of two individual skulls (H1 from Tumulus 10 at 96/129 and H1 from 00/195). These individuals are compared with material including Somalian, Ethiopian, Canary Islander and Eastern Libyan Oases crania. Morphological continuity is implied in association with interaction with sub-Saharan populations. It would have been useful if this same comparative sample had been employed in the analysis in the preceding chapter.
    .....
    Preliminary results obtained from ancient DNA studies are presented in Chapter 13, by Carla Babalini and co-workers. Mitochondrial DNA extraction was attempted upon a sub-sample of human teeth from ten individuals. The mtDNA locus was selected due to its maternal inheritance pattern, high copy number, simple structure and relatively fast rate of mutational change. Analysis was undertaken upon the two hypervariable regions and region V. The authors report that the mtDNA from the individuals from site 96/129 was reasonably distinct from that obtained from the other sampled material. Only one individual was fully characterised, and was found to be a member of an African haplotype (L3).
    In reference to hair, we really need to admit we don't know what is going on.
    I think we should simply leave it at that. With any argument made regarding Horners and how straight hair is non-adaptive to the environment we would also have to make that argument to southern Asians......now what? One thing I DO know is that straight hair in SSA, Nile Valley, etc is clearly not tied directly to Ancestry. If you want further proofs look at some of the Ancient remains in Sudan. That same straight hair that they find in Ancient Egypt they also find in Ancient Sudan....in remains so much more stereotypically "African". Those same "Mass Reduced Teeth" they find in Egypt are also found in Ancient Sudan and even ancient remains in Kenya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I havent read the entire book, I got it for the main reason of getting the details on the aDNA results. The Chapters are summerized here. I may get around to posting some images but dont hold your breath for it.
    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/prehistoric/rev..._03_lernia.htm



    In reference to hair, we really need to admit we don't know what is going on.
    I think we should simply leave it at that. With any argument made regarding Horners and how straight hair is non-adaptive to the environment we would also have to make that argument to southern Asians......now what? One thing I DO know is that straight hair in SSA, Nile Valley, etc is clearly not tied directly to Ancestry. If you want further proofs look at some of the Ancient remains in Sudan. That same straight hair that they find in Ancient Egypt they also find in Ancient Sudan....in remains so much more stereotypically "African". Those same "Mass Reduced Teeth" they find in Egypt are also found in Ancient Sudan and even ancient remains in Kenya.
    How straight hair expresses itself in the horn is extremly weird (in particular somalia), the darker you are the more straight hair you have and the lighter you are the more kinky or wavy hair you have.
    Of course their exist exceptions but generally this is the case in Somalia

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brava View Post
    I agree, for me Afar look more Ethiopian or perhaps Eritrean than they do Somali.
    They simply don't have that specific phenotype I associate with Somalis.
    Somalis are really a special case of their own. Really hard to pin point.
    Here I must disagree, ya broski. If by "Ethiopian" you mean Habeshas (based on the Eritrean comment ) then no... Afars look more distinct from them than they do Somalis tbh. They overlap with us more too. I just meant that Afars clearly have their own sort of look that I see from time to time, I can't really explain it. But they can be "diverse". You'll see many who look very typically Somali, others who randomly remind me of Tigrinyas and Amharas and some who just have this look I can pinpoint as nothing more than mostly unique to their ethnic group.

    However my point is merely that overall; they don't look as blatantly Somali-esque as some think, there is a general distinction to be noticed...


    ^ I see a good number of people with typically Somali looks and far less who seem Habesha for example...

    Plus, Ethiopia is a pretty diverse place Horner phenotypes wise... Many Oromos (the largest ethnic group in Ethiopia) can overlap more with Somalis than Northern Highlanders (Habeshas-Agaws) for example (they're (Oromos) overall a pretty physically diverse ethnic group tbh).
    Last edited by Awale; 2015-05-15 at 14:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    . I just meant that Afars clearly have their own sort of look that I see from time to time, I can't really explain it. But they can be "diverse". You'll see many who look very typically Somali, others who randomly remind me of Tigrinyas and Amharas and some who just have this look I can pinpoint as nothing more than mostly unique to their ethnic group.
    I agree. IMO Afar and their specific looks diverge more toward Sudanese and Egyptian Beja. Ababda Type looks. Its hard to describe but its like some local North East African non Sub Saharan "Black" look. I am only using the term "Black" to place them in the African context as some of these features (IMO) overlap with Southern Indians:

    Spoiler: 

    Afar

    Afar


    One you start to get phenotypes like this you forget which continent you are on:
    Afar


    Ababda


    Bisharin:


    Bisharin



    I have seen plenty of Indian looking Sudandese/Egyptians, both online and in Africa. Is "Veddoid" the term they use to use? In any case, if we read the literature we have to add in two truths. (1) African phenotype diversity is extremely wide. (2) African phenotype diversity has been extremely reduced fro what we know of ancient remains. We are likely just looking at remnants no longer around in their current form. Genetic results from Egyptian Beja who's position is somewhat Basal geographically, linguistically and perhaps on Y-Chro (See Hirbo) would be very telling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I agree. IMO Afar and their specific looks diverge more toward Sudanese and Egyptian Beja. Ababda Type looks. Its hard to describe but its like some local North East African non Sub Saharan "Black" look.
    I actually agree rather strongly with this... Oddly enough; I've noticed that many Afars do actually remind me of Bejas or "North Sudanese" who look similar to them. It's interesting to note that the Beja, Saho and Afar languages are actually somewhat extra-connected within Cushitic despite the branching distinction (North V Lowland East) where one linguist seemed to find some evidence that they were once "geographically contiguous".

    It belongs to the Cushitic family of the Afro-Asiatic genetic stock. It is the sole member of its northern branch, and is so different from other Cushitic languages in many respects and especially as regards to the lexicon, that the American linguist, Robert Hetzron (1980), thought it best to set it apart from Cushitic as an independent branch of Afro-Asiatic. But his new classification was not taken up by other linguists. On the contrary, the French linguist Didier Morin (2001)1 has made an attempt to bridge the gap between Beja and another branch of Cushitic, namely Low-Land East Cushitic and in particular Afar and Saho, the linguistic hypothesis being historically grounded on the fact that the three languages where once geographically contiguous.
    Source (another source on the matter)

    Well, the geographically contiguous part is more grounded in history but it's supported by the connections he seems to have found imho. I wonder if there was some intermixing afoot... Doubt it but I could be wrong.
    Last edited by Awale; 2015-05-15 at 13:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I agree. IMO Afar and their specific looks diverge more toward Sudanese and Egyptian Beja. Ababda Type looks. Its hard to describe but its like some local North East African non Sub Saharan "Black" look. I am only using the term "Black" to place them in the African context as some of these features (IMO) overlap with Southern Indians:

    Spoiler: 

    Afar

    Afar


    One you start to get phenotypes like this you forget which continent you are on:
    Afar


    Ababda


    Bisharin:


    Bisharin



    I have seen plenty of Indian looking Sudandese/Egyptians, both online and in Africa. Is "Veddoid" the term they use to use? In any case, if we read the literature we have to add in two truths. (1) African phenotype diversity is extremely wide. (2) African phenotype diversity has been extremely reduced fro what we know of ancient remains. We are likely just looking at remnants no longer around in their current form. Genetic results from Egyptian Beja who's position is somewhat Basal geographically, linguistically and perhaps on Y-Chro (See Hirbo) would be very telling.
    The Wadaadoid phenotype? lol.

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