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Thread: What Baltic language is closer to Russian? 🇱🇻 🇱🇹 🇷🇺2467 days old

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    Linkus wrote:
    "Skomand, how relevant is it that at first East Prussia was homogeneous, if since the beginning of 18th century it was no longer so? The loaded-with-Slavisms texts you posted in this thread were from 19th-20th centuries - not from the times when East Prussia was homogeneously Lithuanian but from the times when Polish Masurians were found there in great abundance."

    Masurians did not settle in Prussian Lithuania, the northernmost point that they reached was Angerburg, not even visible in this settlement map:




    Examples of Polish borrowings:

    Predigt/sermon: KOZONIS (Polish KAZANIE)
    Kanzel/pulpit: KOZELNYCZIA (Polish KAZALNICA)
    Gebäude/building: BUDAWONE (Polish BUDOWA)
    Schiff (biblical)/ship: AKRUTAS (Polish OKRET)
    Ordnung/order(-liness): DAWADAS (Polish DOWOD)
    Fromm/pious: NOBAZNAS (Polish NABOZNY)."

    even holidays:
    WELYKOS: Eastern
    Whitsun: SEKMINES
    Christmas: KALEDOS
    Good Friday:TYKOJI PIETNYCZIA

    I will get hold of this one:

    Pranas Skardžius
    Die slavischen Lehnwörter im Altlitauischen
    Inaugural-Dissertation
    Universität Leipzig
    Kaunas, Spindulio, 1931
    His first major study “Die slavischen Lehnwörter im Altlitauischen” (1931) surpasses Alexander Bruckner’s work “Die slavischen Fremdwörter im Litauischen” written as far back as 1877 not only in the volume of data used, but also in a critical approach to the analysis of Slavicisms. In terms of its data and propositions, the study has been and remains relevant to the present day as a handbook to all who investigate Slavicisms or foreign borrowings in general.
    Last edited by Skomand; 2013-01-23 at 11:40.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    No, I am not joking.
    Lithuanian was influenced by Ruthenian (Belarusian) much earlier than by Polish.
    It is also true that Old Prussian is more similar to Polish than Lithuanian is.

    From Elbing Vocabulary and other sources we know about 1800 Prussian words. 200 of them, i.e. 11% are Polish. There are many other words close to Slavonic but 200 are Polish or can be easily derived only from Polish. What is interesting at least 79 of those Polish words were for sure included in Prussian lexicon before X century.
    Yeah, it's true Old Prussia had mixed zones where both Slavic and Baltic speakers lived. But where have you read about the numbers I bolded?

    There are also some features in Old Prussian language that make it more similar to Polish and Slavonic languages than to Lithuanian, for example Old Prussian has masculine, feminine and neuter gender, like Slavonic languages, whereas Lithuanian has only masculine and feminine and doesn’t have neuter.
    To begin with Old Prussian is more archaic than modern Baltic languages. However, it is true that Old Prussian and Latvian has certain several innovations that are also found in Slavic languages. The same author in his book about these innovations or some of them said it's a Finnic influence, the other time it's a connection with Slavs. I don't think it could necessarily show old direct contacts of Old Prussians and Slavs (or Poles since you're so polonocentric it hurts my eyes to read) and prove an oldexistense of Slavic speakers in the Baltic coast because we don't know exactly how those extinct Balts living in between proto-Slavs and future Old Prussians, etc. spoke. They could have worked as mediators if we take into consideration obvious geographical distances of the two groups AND theories about proto-Slavs out of Western Balts theory (no one talks about the other way round theories!).

    It should also be noted that Lithuanian has influences from East Slavic languages like tj>č, so what language is more Slavic influenced? I'd rather wait what Cail can say

    Many important words in Old Prussian are closer to Polish than to Lithuanian, compare for example possessive pronouns ‘mine’, ‘yours’, ‘one’s (own)’:
    Prussian: ‘mais’(mays), ‘twais’(tvays), ‘swais’(svays)
    Polish: ‘mój(muy)’, ‘twój’(tvuy), ‘swój’(svuy),
    Russian: ‘мой’(moy), ‘твой’(tvoy)’, ‘свой’(svoy)
    Lithuanian: ‘mano’, ‘tavo’, ‘savo’

    Many... How much?


    Old Prussian is considered to be more archaic and closer to Slavonic languages than Lithuanian.
    There is a theory that Prussians arrived from the East earlier than Latvians and Lithuanians.
    It does not make Slavic languages mroe archaich than Lithuanian though (I'm telling this cause you're repeating this everytime you have a chance).

    Western and Eastern Baltic languages are associated with different archeological cultures. Not sure if from the very, very start though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Skomand View Post
    That is obvious. If you want to know "is Lithuanian closer to Russian, Polish ...etc" look at Prussian-Lithuanian first, not at current-day Lithuanian, because its reflects the Slavic influence to which the Lithuanian language was exposed in the middle ages much better.
    Middle ages: ~500 AD - 1600 AD.

    The most intense language shifting in Eastern Lithuania (within currently Lithuanian lands) was AFTER middle ages. This language shifting, needless to say, produced many borrowings in further regions were actual speakers of Slavic were very few. Even if we are speaking about the eastern strip of Lithuanian speakers that is now Belarus...:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...th_century.png

    (I'm not sure if East Prussian is coloured correctly though).

    You're speaking about the period which could be described as intermediate between Christian and Pagan, so the loanwords via church were not so widespread either.
    Last edited by cinnamona; 2013-01-23 at 12:12.

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    Between Slavs and Poles there were tribes living in Polish modern territories that were 'unified' with creation of the state, so before they were not unified for a period. Prussia bordered Masovia, which was quite independent even during first centuries of Polish state. btw the term 'Masurians' is an old name of people from Masovia, just saying in case someone missed it.
    Anyway, maybe contacts of Masovians and Prussians dated back before creating Polish state? Some people say that northern MAsovians (Kurpie) have Prussian roots, but I am not sure of it, just read it somewhere.
    Am I right or am I wrong?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kwestos View Post
    Between Slavs and Poles there were tribes living in Polish modern territories that were 'unified' with creation of the state, so before they were not unified for a period. Prussia bordered Masovia, which was quite independent even during first centuries of Polish state. btw the term 'Masurians' is an old name of people from Masovia, just saying in case someone missed it.
    Anyway, maybe contacts of Masovians and Prussians dated back before creating Polish state? Some people say that northern MAsovians (Kurpie) have Prussian roots, but I am not sure of it, just read it somewhere.
    There are Baltic hydronyms West of Vistula, but not many. Masovians also have several Baltic loanwords that are found in Latvian, but not Old Prussian (edit). Perhaps a separate Western Baltic tribe existed west of Vistula.

    Western Balts' presence by the Baltic coast is not connected with migrations from the East. They evolved on the basis of previous local cultures. So, it would be kind of weird to think they never overstepped Vistula which was so close.
    Last edited by cinnamona; 2013-01-23 at 12:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cinnamona View Post
    Yeah, it's true Old Prussia had mixed zones where both Slavic and Baltic speakers lived. But where have you read about the numbers I bolded?
    Łucja Okulicz-Kozaryn „Dzieje Prusów” 1997 page 40

    Quote Originally Posted by cinnamona View Post
    There are Baltic hydronyms West of Vistula, but not many. Masovians also have several Baltic loanwords that are not found in Latvian, but Old Prussian. Perhaps a separate Western Baltic tribe existed west of Vistula.

    Western Balts' presence by the Baltic coast is not connected with migrations from the East. They evolved on the basis of previous local cultures. So, it would be kind of weird to think they never overstepped Vistula which was so close.
    There are Slavic hydronyms from Rhine river to Altai mountains.

    Theory about Balts migrating from the East was presented by highly distinguished Lithuanian Balticist, an expert on the Old Prussian language and Indo-European languages Vytautas Mažiulis:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vytautas_Ma%C5%BEiulis

    It fits genetics and archeology. On all autosomal PCA maps Balts are more eastern then Poles and Russians. Before Baltic arrival into East Prussia it was a Lusatian culture territory which was most likely (based on most recent anthropological and genetic studies) proto-West Slavic culture i.e. Poles and other West Slavs are descendents of people living there.
    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
    Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)

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    [/QUOTE]
    Pranas Skardžius
    Die slavischen Lehnwörter im Altlitauischen
    Inaugural-Dissertation
    Universität Leipzig
    Kaunas, Spindulio, 1931
    His first major study “Die slavischen Lehnwörter im Altlitauischen” (1931) surpasses Alexander Bruckner’s work “Die slavischen Fremdwörter im Litauischen” written as far back as 1877 not only in the volume of data used, but also in a critical approach to the analysis of Slavicisms. In terms of its data and propositions, the study has been and remains relevant to the present day as a handbook to all who investigate Slavicisms or foreign borrowings in general.[/QUOTE]

    Here is an assessment of Skardžius' work. It can be downloaded in full:
    http://www.baltistica.lt/index.php/b...ticle/view/191


    SLAVISCHE LEHNWÖRTER IM ALTLITAUlSCHEN

    Zusammenfassung

    Die vorherrschende Meinung, daß es im Altlitauischen (in den Schriftdenkmälern des 16.-17. Jahrhunderts) Polonismen wenigstens zweimal soviel gibt als Weißrussizismen, ist falsch. Sie beruht auf einer falschen Annahme, daß die Angabe des Wortes einer slavischen Sprache im bekannten Studium von P. Skardžius („Die slavischen Lehnwörter im Aitlitauischen“, Kaunas 1931) gleichwertig mit der Feststellung ist, daß der entsprechende Slavismus nähmlich aus dieser Sprache stammt. Polnische Wörter werden dort häufiger nur deshalb angegeben, daß die Lexik der weißrussischen Sprache dem Forscher noch schwer zugänglich war (besonders wegen des Fehlens des Wörterbuchs der alten weißrussischen Sprache). Nach dem neuen Studium des Ursprungs eines Teiles der von Skardžius gesammelten Slavismen stellt sich heraus, daß eine große Mehrheit – sogar drei Viertel - der alten Slavismen Lehnwörter sowohl aus dem Weißrussischen als auch dem Polnischen sein könnte, und die Lehnwörter, die nur aus einer von diesen Sprachen stammen könnten, das übrige Viertel ausmachen und dab es hier Weißrussizismen wenigstens zweimal mehr gibt als Polonismen.

    Visas tekstas: PDF

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    OCHO MOY MYLE SCHWANTE PANICKE

    A Slavic speaker might think that he understands this sentence. It's Old Prussian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    There are also some features in Old Prussian language that make it more similar to Polish and Slavonic languages than to Lithuanian, for example Old Prussian has masculine, feminine and neuter gender, like Slavonic languages, whereas Lithuanian has only masculine and feminine and doesn’t have neuter.
    Lithuanian has a fully functional neuter gender in adjectives and participles and there are also some neuter nouns too. But spreading disinformation is nothing new for you, is it?

    Go read this for the starters
    http://www.debeselis.net/adjectives_neuter.php

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    It is also true that Old Prussian is more similar to Polish than Lithuanian is.

    Old Prussian is considered to be more archaic and closer to Slavonic languages than Lithuanian.
    There is a theory that Prussians arrived from the East earlier than Latvians and Lithuanians.
    Woj' & Truthseeker don't surprise me but how fascinating is it to see that even some Poles whom I previously considered moderate thanked the idiotic ramblings in that post of yours.

    The reality check:
    Lithuanian/Prussian similarity 49
    Lithuanian/Polish similarity 43
    Prussian/Polish similarity 40

    There's not a single Slavic language which would be closer to Old Prussian than it is to Lithuanian in Lexicostatistical comparisons:


    Old Prussian is considered to be more archaic only in some aspects. For example, it has not retained all noun cases like Lithuanian has. Lithuanian is also the only Satem language that has retained Š & Ž which other languages have reduced to S & Z.

    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    On all autosomal PCA maps Balts are more eastern then Poles and Russians.
    That is only so when the Neolithic ancestry from the Middle Eastern is counted as "Western European". If decreased levels of such foreign ancestry or lacking even later admix from Scots & Germans is an argument for the supposed more Eastern origin of Balts in comparison to Slavs - your position is pretty weak.



    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by Skomand View Post
    OCHO MOY MYLE SCHWANTE PANICKE

    A Slavic speaker might think that he understands this sentence. It's Old Prussian.
    Not only a Slavic speaker might. In modern Lithuanian:

    "Ach, mano miela šventa panike!", the only loaned root is pan-.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skomand View Post
    Current Lithuanian does not reflect the extent to which it was exposed to Polish and Belo-Russian influence historically. At the beginning of the last century slavisms were removed and replaced by newly-formed words.
    On the contrary. Only the newly acquired Slavicisms were purged out while the old ones like pyragas, pipiras, prašyti, etc. were not touched, so nobody can say that the situation before the purging reflected the true historical situation better - all it reflected better was the abrupt 19th century forceful Polonization which was basically contemporaneous to the purging itself anyway. Saying that they should have been kept for some "historical value" is as retarded as saying that the contemporary anglicisms čipsai, menedžeris, biznis, etc. should be accepted to the standard language instead of being shunned as barbarisms because of some "historical value".



    - - - Updated - - -



    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    Actually, most cases here in Latvian language show replacement of diphtongs with other diphtongs. Word Pieci contains diphtong ie. Roka also contains diphtong uo. Show me a random Russian or Pole, who would be capable of flawless pronouncing diphtongs ie or uo.
    Standard Polish does not lack ie. In the example that I've shown the Polish word does have precisely the diphthong you are talking about.

    Diphthongs in & un have been replaced by single letters i & u in Latvian. While en & an which were replaced by ie & uo still sound similar to Slavic languages due to the loss of consonant n. It doesn't have to be "identical" to be "more similar".

    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    Latvian sound dz is not found in Russian language at all. In some other Slavic language it is found yes, but thread's topic goes about Russian language.
    Which sounds more similar to Russian Ž - Lithuanian G or Latvian DZ?

    You're acting as if something has to be exactly the same or any similarity will be ignored altogether even when it's quite eye staggering. But you only act that way when it comes to the Latvian-Russian similarity - the fact that different root vowels exist in the aforementioned keturi/četiri did not stop you from proclaiming this as a similarity too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    And I guess that Latvian word is only one, where stressed is first syllable, not second one.
    You guessed wrong. Lithuanian doesn't have a stress on the second syllable either, it has it on the last one. All the Slavic ones do have it on the second one though.
    Actually, Poles - just like Latvians - have a fixed stress, albeit theirs is on the penultimate syllable. Sorbs, Chechs and Slovaks even have a fixed stress on the first syllable like Latvians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    It does not make Latvian language very close to Uralic languages, but it does pull it away from Russian, and other Slavic languages, and even Lithuanian language.
    Not necessarily so since some of the few supposedly Finnic influences in Latvian are also shared by Russians, e.g.: the lack of 'to have' construction for expressing possession.
    http://languagesoftheworld.info/russ...n-russian.html
    Two theories have been proposed to account for the lack of ‘to have’ in Russian (again, except in some very limited contexts). One theory treats it as an example of change induced by contact with Finnic languages, whereas the alternative takes it to be a relic of the earlier state-of-affairs in Common Slavic, inherited from Proto-Indo-European, which is generally believed to have been lacking a ‘have’ verb. Note that all modern Slavic languages have a ‘have’ verb — with the exception of Russian, which immediately suggests Finnic influence. Another piece of evidence in support of the Finnic-induced-change theory comes from Baltic languages: Latvian — which had Finno-Ugric contacts — also uses a ‘be’-based construction to express possession



    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    You have to remember the original topic - which Baltic language is most similar to Russian language. Despite the Russian loanwords in Latvian language, they don't make Latvian language more similar to it



    Quote Originally Posted by Evi View Post
    just like it is with Russian loanwords in Estonian language - Estonian is and always will be much less resembling Russian language than f.e. Lithuanian language despite there are more loanwords in former language, than latter language. The similarities are not made by loanwords alone, they are made by morphology and syntax too.
    Your analogy with Estonian about inherent vs acquired similarity is laughable. Lithuanian and Latvian started on an even ground, both of them being Balto-Slavic, while Lithuanian and Estonian are in completely different positions, Estonian not only not being a Balto-Slavic tongue - it's not even Indo-European!

    You earlier said that the shitload of German loanwords are pulling Latvian away from Russian but Russian loanwords of which Latvian also has plenty are not pushing it towards Russian - the vocabulary does count when talking about Latvian differences with Russian but not when talking about Latvian similarities with Russian?? You are officially a bigot, congratz!
    Last edited by linkus; 2013-09-06 at 05:17.

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    Originally Posted by Skomand:
    "Current Lithuanian does not reflect the extent to which it was exposed to Polish and Belo-Russian influence historically. At the beginning of the last century slavisms were removed and replaced by newly-formed words."


    Quote Originally Posted by linkus View Post

    On the contrary. Only the newly acquired Slavicisms were purged out while the old ones like pyragas, pipiras, prašyti, etc. were not touched, so nobody can say that the situation before the purging reflected the true historical situation better - all it reflected better was the abrupt 19th century forceful Polonization which was basically contemporaneous to the purging itself anyway. Saying that they should have been kept for some "historical value" is as retarded as saying that the contemporary anglicisms čipsai, menedžeris, biznis, etc. should be accepted to the standard language instead of being shunned as barbarisms
    because of some "historical value".
    We have Prussian-Lithuanian which reflects the linguistic baggage of 16th century Lithuanian immigrants and their Slavic loan-words.
    Kurschat sums it up like this:


    "Zu den Slawismen zählen neben anderen alle die christliche Religion, die christlichen Feste, Wochentage, kirchliche Dinge, soziale Ordnungen und Ähnliches betreffenden Ausdrücke."

    One example of the purges is week-days, preserved in Prussia but exterminated in modern Lithuanian.

    (Prussia ): panedelis , utarninkas, sereda, ketwergas, petnyczia, subata, nedelia

    and this modern stupidity: pirmadienis "First Day" , antradienis "Second Day" etc, treciadienis, ketvirtadienis, penktadienis, sestadienis, sekmadienis.
    Last edited by Skomand; 2013-09-06 at 17:46.

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    Based on indo-euro map below, ancient lithuanian would have been the first to influence the russian areas.
    The slavic ( red writing) would have headed in a North-east direction to influence Russian, especially since we known the prussian, samland, curonion lands where the last to be effected by slavic.



    Uploaded with ImageShack.us
    Last edited by Trinkar; 2013-09-06 at 19:37.
    PF=(37% Basque, French, Orcadian, Spanish) (63% Tuscan)
    Dodecad=N_Italian 7.20, O_Italian 10.29, North_Italian 10.61, Tuscan 12.12
    Euro K13=North Euro 39%, Med 34%, Caucasus 11%, West Central Asia 8%,
    MDLP=Paleo_Euro 29%, Celto-Germanic 21%, East Euro 14%, Caucasian 13%
    MDLP22=North Italian 1.73, Bulgarian 6.42, Romanian 7.47, Swiss 7.47

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