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Thread: Which group of NWB have the most Central African ancestry?2080 days old

  1. #21
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    @ Lemba

    Do you know of any Central (or West) African groups that might be the predecessor to Chumba and Wanaragua (Jankunú)?

    Chumba is a female worker dance and Wanaragua is a masked/costumed dance mocking white slave catchers:



    ^
    This video was shot in my hometown of Punta Gorda


    Quote Originally Posted by Lemba View Post
    This is in congo-brazzaville, I will post a Dominican Palo video in hte next post to compare
    To me that beat it too repetitive. You would think with three drummers and ten minutes.... Anyways, the dancing style reminds me more of Puerto Rican Bomba how the women and men line up with one another.

    Quote Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
    Cuba has the best music in the diaspora, and most of its slaves came from Biafra.
    Based on what?
    Last edited by pgbk87; 2014-01-12 at 02:06.
    K=47 Results
    78.92% African
    • 59.05% West-African
    • 8.36% Central-African_HG
    • 3.32% East-African_HG
    • 2.22% Nilotic
    • 2.11% Omotic(?)
    • 1.78% Sahelian
    • 1.05% South-African_HG
    • 1.03% Kushitic(?)

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    • 3.79% North-Sea_Germanic
    • 2.15% East-Euro
    • 1.39% Scando-Germanic
    • 1.26% Paleo-Balkan
    • 0.88% Central-Med
    • 0.54% NW-Indian(?)
    • 0.42% East-Iberian
    • 0.39% Baltic
    • 0.14% West-Med
    • 0.17% North-Iberian
    • 0.02% East-Med

    9.92% Native/Indigenous to Americas
    • 4.59% Meso-Amerind
    • 2.14% Amazonian
    • 2.01% Andean
    • 1.15% North-Amerind
    • 0.02% South-Indian(?)
    • 0.01% Tibetan(?)

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by stala View Post
    Lemba, the study I quoted from the other day for CV Mtdna, compares CV to DR and Brazil.
    CV was plotting with Senegal, DR with Nigeria and Niger, and Brazil Mozambique. This may not mean much, but isn't it some indication?
    It probably had limited sample sizes, since although Brazilians has more Mozambican in them than any other New World black groups, it's still only a modest percentage of their total African genes.

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    Most slaves that were sent to the Guianas (when they were mostly Dutch owned) were from the Kongo Kingdom, mainly Loango!

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgbk87 View Post
    @ Lemba

    Do you know of any Central (or West) African groups that might be the predecessor to Chumba and Wanaragua (Jankunú)?

    Chumba is a female worker dance and Wanaragua is a masked/costumed dance mocking white slave catchers:



    ^
    This video was shot in my hometown of Punta Gorda




    To me that beat it too repetitive. You would think with three drummers and ten minutes.... Anyways, the dancing style reminds me more of Puerto Rican Bomba how the women and men line up with one another.



    Based on what?
    I'm still trying to find an African match for those type of drums, rythmically it can fall into alot of places. Parranda to me sounds like Igbo Music/Merengue. But This and Punta, the basic rythms of it have a unique, sound like Dominican palo on a slightly different timing. However the use of a very high pitched drum to mark the dancer is more of a Senengambian thing then it is congolese, the congolese mark with the Deepest drum. So the base rythm of Punta sounds to me like something i'd hear from the Congo, but the behavior of marking iwth higher pitched is not something i've seen in congolese drummin, but all the time with Sierra Leone/Senengambia region. Since Garifuna's are probably from one or two groups, they hsould be pretty homogenous on the African front, i had seen some mtdna study sometimeago that suggested a Nigerian origin? But i'd hav to see the mtdnas again.

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    Most likely black/mulato Uruguyans have the highest Central African ratio out of their total African ancestry. Especially when you include Mozambique. Rio de la Plata had something like 75% of their direct slave imports from Bantu speaking regions according to slavevoyages.org. Additionally they also has indirect trade via Brazil though.

    Haiti and Brazil could be contenders for nr. 2 position i suppose. However you have to keep in mind that Brazil is a huge country with large regional differences in their slave trade sourcing. Southern Brazil and esp. Rio is where the Central African ancestry is concentrated. Bahia is going to be more Benin/Nigeria than Angola/Congo and northern Brazil (Maranhao/Amazonas) had a majority of slaves coming in from Guinea Bissau.



    Quote Originally Posted by pgbk87 View Post
    I am not going by Importation Data as records for slaves are poorly kept. There is also no way of knowing who survived and whose DNA has manifests itself in the contemporary population, who marooned themselves, etc...
    Agreed on your last points, but actually for many countries the slave trade records are quite extensive, like Haiti, Jamaica, Brazil and the US. Even if they 're not going to be 100% complete i think we're going to see some strong correlation with the results on AncestryDNA when taken at grouplevel. For other countries like Belize & DR it might be less so because they were marginal players in the slave trade or mainly had imports via indirect/illegal means or because the archives have not been survived. DR's statistics on the slavevoyages website are definitely out of line because they underestimate the major imports via CV in the 16th and 17th century. I've been told the website is going to update its database soon and it will add lots more early slave voyages, plus it will correct its estimations as well esp. for the Spanish Americas.


    Quote Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
    Cuba has the best music in the diaspora, and most of its slaves came from Biafra.
    They actually also imported many slaves from Congo, according to this chart even slightly more than people from Biafra (Carabalis). It's only referring to the last century of Cuban slave trade though, in earlier periods it would have been a different story.




    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Hand View Post
    Most slaves that were sent to the Guianas (when they were mostly Dutch owned) were from the Kongo Kingdom, mainly Loango!
    They were important yes, but not a majority. Most slaves brought over by the Dutch came from the area in between Liberia and Benin, with Ghana being most prominent as also confirmed by cultural retention. Akan influence is HUGE in Surinam!


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    "Which group of NWB have the most Central African ancestry?"

    I know that Jamaica probably has the least Central African ancestry.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by oditous View Post
    They were important yes, but not a majority. Most slaves brought over by the Dutch came from the area in between Liberia and Benin, with Ghana being most prominent as also confirmed by cultural retention. Akan influence is HUGE in Surinam!

    That's true about the cultural retention. However notice that in the pie charts that that Kongo Kingdom slaves never drop below 20%.
    According to the charts on average Kongo Kingdom slave imports are 32.3%
    While Gold Coast slave imports are only about 20% (I divided the "Guinea" part on the first pie chart into Windward Coast, Gold Coast, Slave Coast/Bight of Benin and Bight of Biafra and went from there)

    Also just look at the faces of Afro-Surinamese they clear have West Congolese and Angolan influences some even look fully like Western Congolese and Angolan peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oditous View Post
    DR's statistics on the slavevoyages website are definitely out of line because they underestimate the major imports via CV in the 16th and 17th century.
    Which would have brought Senegambian slaves, mostly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Hand View Post
    That's true about the cultural retention. However notice that in the pie charts that that Kongo Kingdom slaves never drop below 20%.
    According to the charts on average Kongo Kingdom slave imports are 32.3%
    While Gold Coast slave imports are only about 20% (I divided the "Guinea" part on the first pie chart into Windward Coast, Gold Coast, Slave Coast/Bight of Benin and Bight of Biafra and went from there)

    Also just look at the faces of Afro-Surinamese they clear have West Congolese and Angolan influences some even look fully like Western Congolese and Angolan peoples.
    Yeah it's true you can often see Central African influences in Surinamese faces. However the piecharts i posted are actually depicting Dutch slave trade to ALL their colonies. Suriname & Guyana only became important after 1700. Before that it was mainly Curacao and even Brazil in the very beginning.



    Loango/Congo certainly played a very important role in Dutch slave trade but like i said earlier the area in between Liberia and Benin was more significant in numbers. The confusing thing is that this entire coastal area was often lumped together as just "Guinea Coast". About 20 % of all documented Dutch slave voyages departed from this region. Much of it may actually be from Windward coast (present day Ivory Coast and Liberia). I've been reading that in the late 18th century many Dutch slave traders gathered most of their captives there before making a final stop in Elmina/Ghana. In the chart below you can see it mentioned under "Other Africa". That % needs to be added to the ones for WW Coast & Gold Coast. If you do it 50/50, Gold Coast will be higher than WC Africa.


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    According to this recent study, a number of African Americans have roots in Cameroon, which is considered West Central Africa. Would you count African Americans as NWBs with significant Central African ancestry based on this? http://sinologist500.wordpress.com/abstract-3/
    Relocated Feb 2014

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    Quote Originally Posted by oditous View Post
    Yeah it's true you can often see Central African influences in Surinamese faces. However the piecharts i posted are actually depicting Dutch slave trade to ALL their colonies. Suriname & Guyana only became important after 1700. Before that it was mainly Curacao and even Brazil in the very beginning.



    Loango/Congo certainly played a very important role in Dutch slave trade but like i said earlier the area in between Liberia and Benin was more significant in numbers. The confusing thing is that this entire coastal area was often lumped together as just "Guinea Coast". About 20 % of all documented Dutch slave voyages departed from this region. Much of it may actually be from Windward coast (present day Ivory Coast and Liberia). I've been reading that in the late 18th century many Dutch slave traders gathered most of their captives there before making a final stop in Elmina/Ghana. In the chart below you can see it mentioned under "Other Africa". That % needs to be added to the ones for WW Coast & Gold Coast. If you do it 50/50, Gold Coast will be higher than WC Africa.

    I took your advise and have redone the averages on the Guianas slave imports based on both of the pie charts you posted.
    I included the 1675-1699 pie chart because according to that 34% of slaves went to the Guianas and that is a huge chunk IMO.

    The Guianas slave imports from 1675-1803 according to both pie charts that oditous posted:
    Kongo Kingdom (Loango) = 31% on average
    Gold Coast = 23% on average
    Slave Coast/Bight of Benin = 23.75% on average

    It seems Kongo Kingdom slave imports still predominate. However I still think that Gold Coast slave imports to the Guianas are quite under stated.

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