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Thread: Uralic urheimat1960 days old

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Very interesting!
    So in your opinion, would you say this:
    Is more accurate than this:
    The first maps have the eastern extension... But then it looks like they derive Anatolian from the eastern side of the Pontic Sea? Or what difference did you meant?

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard
    And you actually don't think the Samara culture is at all necessary for PIE, or at least not necessary to center the position of PIE between proto-Semitic and proto-Uralic?
    Well, archaeologically the Samara Culture seems to have been giving birth to the Yamnaya Culture. But during the Samara Culture Pre-Proto-Uralic probably was still far in Siberia. Therefore it is enough to assume that only post-Yamnaya cultures, like Fatyanovo-Balanovo (Northwest IE) and Poltavka (Aryan) got to contact with Proto-Uralic in the Middle Volga region.
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  4. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    The first maps have the eastern extension... But then it looks like they derive Anatolian from the eastern side of the Pontic Sea? Or what difference did you meant?
    Anatolian is beside the point. I was wondering if you think it's correct to include Samara in Yamnaya, and if Samara is at all necessary for proto-Uralic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Well, archaeologically the Samara Culture seems to have been giving birth to the Yamnaya Culture.
    Perhaps, but we also have to keep in mind that what we really know from the Eneolithic and similar cultural periods, is very little in regards to what culture gave birth to which. Archeological horizons like Samara, Yamnaya etc., are merely fingerprints, blueprints and traces of thousands of years of human interaction from which archeologists basically have pots and a few other tools to work with and identify after. Quite a lot of speculation is involved, and you know, "pots are not people".

    Based on the Mesolithic R1a1* that was found in Karelia, I think it's fair to say that R1a and possibly along with R1b, migrated south from north-eastern Europe, and settled either in Samara or maybe a bit south-west of Samara. Then from there evolved the PIE culture eventually.

    Much better than pots and similar tools, I think aDNA (including Y-DNA!) will give us a clearer migration pattern of how proto-language families spread. Which leads me to another point regarding proto-Uralic, see the Y-DNA/linguistic maps here:

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=1#post1180197

    And please answer in that thread, because this one is about the Uralic urheimat whereas that one is about the genetic composition of the proto-Uralics

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    But during the Samara Culture Pre-Proto-Uralic probably was still far in Siberia.
    Yes, because had proto-Indo-European and proto-Uralic been much closer to each other, either a sprachbund would have developed, or they may have been cousin languages or something, both originally descended from a root proto language.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Therefore it is enough to assume that only post-Yamnaya cultures, like Fatyanovo-Balanovo (Northwest IE) and Poltavka (Aryan) got to contact with Proto-Uralic in the Middle Volga region.
    Sounds about right to me. It would also explain why proto-Uralic isn't loaded with PIE terms, if proto-Uralic already had become an independent and isolated language family by then, as opposed to you know, having lived under the influence of PIE for thousands of years already.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    I'm not sure what are are the implications - if any - but N1c has just been uncovered in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia (from about the middle of the III millenium BC):

    https://www.academia.edu/9452168/Arc...olbunova_E._ed
    http://eurogenes.blogspot.ca/2015/02...rn-russia.html

    Last edited by Ubirajara; 2015-02-26 at 09:50.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    I'm not sure what are are the implications - if any - but N1c has just been uncovered in the Upper Dvina region of western Russia (from about the middle of the III millenium BC):
    Interesting! That's like here somewhere, if I'm not mistaken:



    This aDNA finding should indicate a proto-Finnic migration into northern Europe, but probably not the exact geographic spot for the proto-Uralic urheimat.
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    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    "Верхнее подвинье" means the source of River Dvina (they obviously mean Western Dvian and not Northern one).
    The regions in questions are to the South and West of the place Elias has marked near the border with Belorussia.
    Dumb Post of the Year Award goes to....

    Quote Originally Posted by George1 View Post
    Lets took than the Iberian peninsula, 8 distant groups of IE was there Celtici Lusitanians Greeks Vandals Suevi Alani Goths and Italic people, only haplogroup G2a have there so many subgroups.
    The R1a have only one sugroup there the R1a1a1g2* and it is almost absent in that region
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    I will make all my best that all Georgians will be muredered with the maximum pain and maximum time of pain then use take you houses, churches as stripping clubs.

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    @Jaska and Hweinlant: where exactly do you two place the proto-Uralic urheimat, respectively?
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    @Jaska and Hweinlant: where exactly do you two place the proto-Uralic urheimat, respectively?
    I would also like to know that.
    Comedian of the year 2010 award goes to...


    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Indo-Europeans were in Finland long before the Uralics got there.

    Comedian of the year 2011 award goes to...


    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Indo-Europeans were in Estonia before Uralics.

    Comedian of the year 2012 award goes to...


    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    you look very Eastern European

    Troll of the year 2012 award goes to...

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    Roughly saying, Estonians are half-Latvians and half-Finns.

    Troll of the year 2016 award goes to...

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    @Jaska and Hweinlant: where exactly do you two place the proto-Uralic urheimat, respectively?
    Late Proto-Uralic (~2000 BC) is most plausibly located near Lower Kama, to the east from the Great Volga Bend. It was contemporanious with Late Proto-Aryan (associated with the Poltavka Culture to the south) and Archaic Indo-European (associated with the Fatyanovo-Balanovo Culture to the west). Evidence of these loanword layers:
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/UralicEvidence.pdf
    Last edited by Jaska; 2016-11-26 at 21:22.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Late Proto-Uralic (~2000 BC) is most plausibly located near Lower Kama, to the east from the Great Volga Bend. It was contemporanious with Late Proto-Aryan (associated with the Poltavka Culture to the south) and Archaic Indo-European (associated with the Fatyanovo-Balanovo Culture to the west). Evidence of these loanword layers:
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/UralicEvidence.pdf
    So you think proto-Uralic was more a west Eurasian than east Eurasian language family?
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    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    So you think proto-Uralic was more a west Eurasian than east Eurasian language family?
    I think Pre-Proto-Uralic was spoken in Asia. Typological and lexical connections to the Altaic-type families and Yukaghir seem to me to be stronger than connections to the Indo-European language family, which then has stronger connections to the Caucasian language families. There are remarkably few propositions for Early Proto-IE loanwords in Uralic, and the shared loanwords reflect the reconstruction level of Late Proto-IE.

    Therefore I see it credible that Pre-Proto-Uralic was spoken in Asia (near Altai-Sayan mountains) and only around 3000 BC it spread/arrived to Europe, where it immediately began to contact with the neighbouring Indo-European languages. The oldest "Proto-Indo-European" loanwords must not be any older than the Early Proto-Aryan loanwords, thus representing rather something like "Archaic Indo-European" and not Late Proto-Indo-European itself.
    Last edited by Jaska; 2016-11-27 at 19:35.
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