User Tag List

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 40

Thread: Uralic urheimat1960 days old

  1. #1
    Established Member
    Junior Member Jaska's Avatar
    Last Online
    2016-12-19 @ 18:55
    Join Date
    2010-06-26
    Posts
    1,472
    Location
    Tuusula
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    N1c1
    mtDNA
    H5a1e
    Metaethnos
    Uralic
    Ethnicity
    Finn
    Phenotype
    Fallen angel
    Politics
    ...sucks
    Religion
    Very own
    Finland

    Default Uralic urheimat

    Uralic urheimat

    I see that Karl/Põhjamaalane still spreads outdated and false propaganda about the spread of the Uralic languages in Fenno-Baltia in different forums. Therefore I present here the up-to-date linguistic results, and Karl or his Finnish counterpart Hweinlant may then present his counter-arguments, which I shall then disprove.

    0. Valid interdisciplinary method
    It has been known since the 80's (thanks to J.P. Mallory) that archaeological (or genetic, for that matter) continuity cannot testify anything about linguistic continuity. Just the opposite: concerning the wide-spread language families like Uralic and Indo-European, archaeological continuity actually correlates with linguistic discontinuity (language shift).
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Uralic.html (in English)
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Jatkuvuus1.pdf (in Finnish; try Google translate)

    1. Pre-Proto-Uralic in Siberia
    Uralic loanword layers in Yukaghir show us that Pre-Proto-Uralic was still spoken near Pre-Proto-Yukaghir. Uralic languages have never been spoken east of Upper Yenisei, and there is no arguments to draw Pre-Proto-Yukaghir west of it. Therefore the contact zone must have been around the Upper Yenisei. From there Pre-Proto-Uralic spread/moved to the European side of Urals as late as around 3000 BC.
    http://www.sgr.fi/sust/sust264/sust264_hakkinenj.pdf (in English)

    2. Early and Middle Proto-Uralic
    These stages are based on two parallel lineages of Indo-European loanword layers:
    - Western: Archaic ("proto-looking") Northwest Indo-European loanword layers
    - Southern: Early, Middle and Late Proto-Aryan loanword layers
    The northwestern IE dialect is widely connected to the Fatyanovo-Balanovo complex, while the Aryan dialect is connected to the Poltavka and Abashevo cultures. These meet in the Lower Kama - Middle Volga region, and Early and Middle Proto-Uralic stages gap the 3rd millennium BC.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/UralicEvidence.pdf (in English)
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Prob...logenetics.pdf (in English)

    3. Late Proto-Uralic
    Dispersal of Late Proto-Uralic seems to date only around 2000 BC, and the location of the homeland is around the Lower Kama, between the Great Volga Bend (Volga-Kama fork) and the Ural Mountains. This is based on several linguistic results:
    - loanword studies: several loanword layers from Northwest Indo-European and Aryan lineages
    - paleolinguistics: names for metals and agricultural innovations for dating, and for trees for locating
    Additionally, also the new datings and locations for Proto-Saami and Proto-Finnic force the rejuvenating of Proto-Uralic.
    http://www.sgr.fi/susa/92/hakkinen.pdf (in Finnish; try Google translate)
    http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/viritt...tut/2006_2.pdf (in Finnish; try Google translate)
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Jatkuvuus2.pdf (in Finnish; try Google translate)

    4. After Proto-Uralic
    Consequently, when we still connect the Northwest Indo-Europeans to the Corded Ware horizon (at the latest), Baltia (including Estonia) was first Indo-European (around 3000 BC) and only later became Uralic (at the 2nd millennium BC). Even Southwest Finland seems to have gotten its earliest Indo-European speakers during the Corded Ware time, while (the earliest) Proto-Finnic speakers arrived there only around 500 BC.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html

    Karl can add these scientific results in his signature - that will only make himself a comedian of the year 2014.


    5. Current state of affairs
    All the Uralicists, who have taken part in the discussion during the recent years, have supported the new Uralic chronology: Asko Parpola, Juha Janhunen, Petri Kallio... Nobody has presented any valid counter-arguments, no matter what Karl says. This view is the best-argued and therefore the most supported view about the Uralic origin at the moment. No outdated view based on the erroneous continuity theories can challenge it.

    Karl, you have no authority nor competence in historical linguistics, even after you complete your degree in history. If you invent some arguments which have not been taken into consideration earlier, please be welcome to present them. Otherwise you must accept the arguments presented by historical linguists, when you cannot disprove them.
    Last edited by Jaska; 2014-02-12 at 20:05.
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
    mtDNA: H5a1e (Northern Finland)

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/

  2. The Following 11 Users Say Thank You to Jaska For This Useful Post:

    alfieb (2014-02-13), cinnamona (2014-02-13), David Noi (2014-02-14), EliasAlucard (2014-02-12), Jusarius (2015-02-23), Mr.KnowItAll (2014-02-12), muso (2014-02-13), Namu (2015-02-23), Pioterus (2014-02-13), Raez (2016-12-02), Rugevit (2014-02-12)

  3. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Location
    ForumBiodiversity.com
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  4. #2
    Senior Moderator
    Plant of Life = Biological Magic 麻 EliasAlucard's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-22
    Posts
    14,691
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Y-DNA
    J1a2a1a2-P58+
    mtDNA
    H5a
    Race
    Caucasian
    Phenotype
    Alpinid
    Metaethnos
    proto-Semitic
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian/Armenian
    Politics
    Environment, Cannabis
    Religion
    Secular Agnostic
    Assyria Assyria 1913-1923 Armenia Lebanon Sweden Greece

    Default

    Welcome back Jaska.

    What's the current consensus on the linguistic palaeontology profile of proto-Uralic?
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

  5. #3
    Established Member
    Junior Member Jaska's Avatar
    Last Online
    2016-12-19 @ 18:55
    Join Date
    2010-06-26
    Posts
    1,472
    Location
    Tuusula
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    N1c1
    mtDNA
    H5a1e
    Metaethnos
    Uralic
    Ethnicity
    Finn
    Phenotype
    Fallen angel
    Politics
    ...sucks
    Religion
    Very own
    Finland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Welcome back Jaska.

    What's the current consensus on the linguistic palaeontology profile of proto-Uralic?
    Few Uralicists tell their opinion, so it is hard to tell. The Proto-Uralic status of a word depends on the taxonomy of the language family, and many seem to approve the new taxonomy based on the phonological level: East Uralic (Ugro-Samoyedic) is seen as another main branch, not Samoyedic alone anymore.
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
    mtDNA: H5a1e (Northern Finland)

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Jaska For This Useful Post:

    EliasAlucard (2014-02-12)

  7. #4
    Senior Moderator
    Plant of Life = Biological Magic 麻 EliasAlucard's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2009-10-22
    Posts
    14,691
    Location
    Sweden
    Gender
    Age
    34
    Y-DNA
    J1a2a1a2-P58+
    mtDNA
    H5a
    Race
    Caucasian
    Phenotype
    Alpinid
    Metaethnos
    proto-Semitic
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian/Armenian
    Politics
    Environment, Cannabis
    Religion
    Secular Agnostic
    Assyria Assyria 1913-1923 Armenia Lebanon Sweden Greece

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    4. After Proto-Uralic
    Consequently, when we still connect the Northwest Indo-Europeans to the Corded Ware horizon (at the latest), Baltia (including Estonia) was first Indo-European (around 3000 BC) and only later became Uralic (at the 2nd millennium BC). Even Southwest Finland seems to have gotten its earliest Indo-European speakers during the Corded Ware time, while (the earliest) Proto-Finnic speakers arrived there only around 500 BC.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Suomensynty.html
    One thing I wonder about in this context, is why Finns have such minor amounts (7.5%) of R1a, and most of it seems to be Swedish/Russian? Did the N1c males kill off almost all directly proto-Indo-European descended males in ancient Finland?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    Few Uralicists tell their opinion, so it is hard to tell. The Proto-Uralic status of a word depends on the taxonomy of the language family, and many seem to approve the new taxonomy based on the phonological level: East Uralic (Ugro-Samoyedic) is seen as another main branch, not Samoyedic alone anymore.
    What's your own view on proto-Uralic paleolinguistics?
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2014-02-12 at 20:41.
    ReactOS <--- support this project so that we can get rid of Windows!
    Ubuntu MATE 16.04.1 LTS | PRISM-Break! | Windows7sins

    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to EliasAlucard For This Useful Post:

    David Noi (2014-02-14)

  9. #5
    Established Member
    Junior Member Jaska's Avatar
    Last Online
    2016-12-19 @ 18:55
    Join Date
    2010-06-26
    Posts
    1,472
    Location
    Tuusula
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    N1c1
    mtDNA
    H5a1e
    Metaethnos
    Uralic
    Ethnicity
    Finn
    Phenotype
    Fallen angel
    Politics
    ...sucks
    Religion
    Very own
    Finland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    One thing I wonder about in this context, is why Finns have such minor amounts (7.5%) of R1a, and most of it seems to be Swedish/Russian? Did the N1c males kill off almost all directly proto-Indo-European descended males in ancient Finland?

    What's your own view on proto-Uralic paleolinguistics?
    1. When the area was for a long time sparsely inhabited and received many immigration waves from different directions, it may well be that there are only few if any Stone Age paternal lineages present in Finland. Every new wave would have made the portion of the older inhabitants all the more smaller, and bottlenecks would have affected them.

    2. Paleolinguistics seems reliable, as long as we know the original meaning well enough (the "salmon critique" is valid, of course). We don't need to know the exact meaning: if all the cognates point to metal, it is irrelevant which metal it originally denoted: the word still dates post-Stone Age.
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
    mtDNA: H5a1e (Northern Finland)

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to Jaska For This Useful Post:

    EliasAlucard (2014-02-12)

  11. #6
    Established Member
    Dubious Honour of 2nd-most Posts alfieb's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-07-06
    Posts
    10,295
    Location
    War-torn New York City
    Gender
    Metaethnos
    Mediterrone
    Ethnicity
    Northwestern Sicilian
    Phenotype
    Altanto-Med+CM/Berid
    Italy Sicily-II United States Argentina

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    East Uralic (Ugro-Samoyedic) is seen as another main branch, not Samoyedic alone anymore.
    Ugro-Samoyedic, meaning that Samoyed language is now seen to be a closer relative of Hungarian than before?

  12. #7
    Established Member
    Race Realist Lemminkäinen's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-05-25
    Posts
    10,621
    Location
    Helsinki
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1-L258
    mtDNA
    H39
    Phenotype
    Appalachid
    Metaethnos
    Finnic-Baltic-Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Politics
    Vandalism in Rome
    Finland European Union

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    One thing I wonder about in this context, is why Finns have such minor amounts (7.5%) of R1a, and most of it seems to be Swedish/Russian? Did the N1c males kill off almost all directly proto-Indo-European descended males in ancient Finland?
    No, it doesn't seem to be mostly Swedish or Russian. It would be awesome if you have something to prove your claim, seriously speaking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    One thing I wonder about in this context, is why Finns have such minor amounts (7.5%) of R1a, and most of it seems to be Swedish/Russian? Did the N1c males kill off almost all directly proto-Indo-European descended males in ancient Finland?
    No, it doesn't seem to be mostly Swedish or Russian. It would be awesome if you have something to prove your claim, seriously speaking.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

  13. #8
    Established Member
    Junior Member Jaska's Avatar
    Last Online
    2016-12-19 @ 18:55
    Join Date
    2010-06-26
    Posts
    1,472
    Location
    Tuusula
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    N1c1
    mtDNA
    H5a1e
    Metaethnos
    Uralic
    Ethnicity
    Finn
    Phenotype
    Fallen angel
    Politics
    ...sucks
    Religion
    Very own
    Finland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by alfieb View Post
    Ugro-Samoyedic, meaning that Samoyed language is now seen to be a closer relative of Hungarian than before?
    Yes. The earlier view was based on lexical calculations, but phonological analysis shows that Ugric and Samoyedic share many innovations. Therefore the lexical innovativeness of Samoyedic (and Hungarian, for that matter) is seen as a secondary development. See page 4:
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/Prob...logenetics.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen
    No, it doesn't seem to be mostly Swedish or Russian. It would be awesome if you have something to prove your claim, seriously speaking.
    The few clear "Finnish" R1a-clusters seem to be newcomers around 1000 years ago, some from Oder, some from Karelia/Russia.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/R1a1Finnish.pdf

    P.S. The forum seems to double all messages; I have to manually remove the other.
    Y-DNA: N1c1 (Savonian)
    mtDNA: H5a1e (Northern Finland)

    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jaska For This Useful Post:

    alfieb (2014-02-13), EliasAlucard (2014-02-13)

  15. #9
    Established Member
    Race Realist Lemminkäinen's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-05-25
    Posts
    10,621
    Location
    Helsinki
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1-L258
    mtDNA
    H39
    Phenotype
    Appalachid
    Metaethnos
    Finnic-Baltic-Germanic
    Ethnicity
    Finnish
    Politics
    Vandalism in Rome
    Finland European Union

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post


    The few clear "Finnish" R1a-clusters seem to be newcomers around 1000 years ago, some from Oder, some from Karelia/Russia.
    http://www.elisanet.fi/alkupera/R1a1Finnish.pdf
    Maybe the Karelian is Russian, or Estonian if we can do this kind of assumptions.

    The Polish one could be same as in Sweden, but saying Swedish is exaggerated, like was the death of Mark Twain.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

  16. #10
    Established Member
    eräjorma Hweinlant's Avatar
    Last Online
    2015-08-10 @ 13:48
    Join Date
    2009-11-01
    Posts
    2,721
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    N1C1
    Metaethnos
    Mymmeli
    Politics
    Folkungs
    Skull and crossbones

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaska View Post
    1. Pre-Proto-Uralic in Siberia
    Uralic loanword layers in Yukaghir show us that Pre-Proto-Uralic was still spoken near Pre-Proto-Yukaghir. Uralic languages have never been spoken east of Upper Yenisei, and there is no arguments to draw Pre-Proto-Yukaghir west of it. Therefore the contact zone must have been around the Upper Yenisei. From there Pre-Proto-Uralic spread/moved to the European side of Urals as late as around 3000 BC.
    Let's examine this and contrast it to what it known from archaeology and ancient dna. Let's start with the linguistic part.

    Your argument for Pre-Proto-Uralic at Siberia is based on (pre-proto) Uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric. There are no Yukaghiric loans in Proto-Uralic.

    Currently Yukaghiric is spoken in northeastern Siberia, in Yakutia, by handful of people. Yukaghiric is not very much studied language group, for obvious reasons. It is usually considered as Paleo-Siberian language, with no known siblings. Uralic is second largest European language family (other being obviously IE), with few spillovers (Samoyedic) at Siberia.

    Your argument for Pre-Proto-Uralic located at Siberia encounters it's first problem within the difficulty to make a difference between Pre-Proto-Uralic and Proto-Uralic. Indeed there is no such difference and it would be impossible to examine such difference with linguistic methods. To reach Pre-Proto-Uralic phase you would have to compare Proto-Uralic, Proto-IE, Proto-Turkic and so forth. This will create a new supernode, which can not be considered as Pre-Proto-Uralic but could perhaps give hints about it.

    So what we have here is indeed Proto-Uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric, not Pre-Proto as you suggest.

    Now let's look the theories concerning Yukaghiric origin and urheimat. As all ready said, Yukaghiric is not well known language group and the amount of studies concerning it's origins are quite limited. General consensus among the few specialists is that it's origins must be sought from the Taimyr-peninsula of western arctic Siberia. This was also verified by dna study made by Sardana Fedorova just last year.

    Indeed you, as an Uralicist, are perfectly aware that ethnogenesis of Nganasans (or Tavgi Samoyeds if you wish) have Yukaghiric component (see also Fedorova et al 2013). Nganasans are living exactly in Taimyr-peninsula and are considered as the most ancient ethnic group living in that particular area.

    From Taimyr, the Yukaghirs spread towards eastern Siberia, via the coastal and river routes. This spread is associated with archaeological culture called Ymyiaktakh (various spellings). Culture is identified with waffle decorated pottery and specific type of flint usage. So what we know is that during late Siberian neolithic, the arctic areas spanning from Taimyr at west and Yakutia at east were inhabited by people of Ymyiaktakh culture, which is associated with spread of Paleo-Siberian Yukaghiric language group.

    So the question to ask is, where did the Proto-Uralics and Yukaghirics met ? Proto-Uralic itself can not give any answer to that question, as Proto-Uralic DOES NOT have any loans from Yukaghiric. This means that the Yukaghirics were living far away from the "Uralic Core" area.

    Uralic loanwords in Yukaghiric indicate that they were frequently visited by Uralics. Your short list of possible loans include terms for "come, eat, load, steal" which could possibly indicate trade relations between Taiga-zone Uralics and arctic Yukaghirics.

    Recently, just in 2008, new burial ground was discovered on the Kola Peninsula (northeastern-most point of Fennoscandia). These burials were exceptionally well preserved and scientist were were able to extract aDNA. Specimens have also been examined by Russian physical anthropology specialists.

    Material culture has been examined by archaeologists. Results were surprising. These burials, dated to around 2.000BC (4KYA) belonged to people of Ymyiaktakh people. Waffle decorated pottery was found. Their mtdna showed mixed back of lineages, others west and others east Eurasian. By Physical type they were arctic Siberians (mongoloids).

    Now, where did the Proto-Uralics met Yukaghirics ? In the land faraway from their core inhabitant (Volosovo-culture). Most likely these contacts happened at White Sea, at Northeast Europe. You all ready knew all of this, yet you keep spamming fora with nonsense. I'd say you are pretty fixed with your theory, which is all ready shown to be false.
    Last edited by Hweinlant; 2014-02-13 at 20:26.

  17. The Following User Says Thank You to Hweinlant For This Useful Post:

    David Noi (2014-02-14)

Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Germanic Urheimat: Jastorf, Nordic Bronze Age, other?
    By Wojewoda in forum Urheimat Theories
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 2019-01-24, 19:41
  2. Uralic adventures
    By Karhunkynsi in forum Urheimat Theories
    Replies: 221
    Last Post: 2018-07-12, 05:07
  3. New information on Indo-European urheimat
    By Zakar-Baal in forum Urheimat Theories
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 2015-03-07, 20:46
  4. Afro-Asiatic urheimat
    By EliasAlucard in forum Urheimat Theories
    Replies: 256
    Last Post: 2012-10-02, 14:02
  5. Anatolian urheimat of proto-Turkic R1a [split] //mod
    By annihilus in forum Urheimat Theories
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 2012-08-24, 18:44

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<