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Thread: Mexican Genetic Discussion1706 days old

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    On AncestryDNA, my Genetic Community is Western & Central Mexico, specifically Jalisco.

    However, I noticed that I have quite a bit of predicted 4th cousins on multiple sites(Ancestry, 23ndme, GEDMATCH) who have roots in Michoacan and Colima, could it possibly mean I have some relatively distant ancestors from those areas?

    For example, maybe I have a 2nd great grandparent from Michoacan, so it went undetected by the Genetic Community algorithm.

    I'd guesstimate that my matches are about 80% Jalisco, then 20% Michoacan/Colima.
    "Living or dying, it's not a big deal. What we should be concerned about is whether or not we're allowed to crawl to our graves."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celph Titled View Post
    Mexican from Jalisco, her Amerindian is in reality lower than 14.5%, she is most likely less than 10% Amerindian since the Americas is composed of mestizos and triracials

    but she came out on MyHeritage as 81.3% European + 14.5% Native American + 4.2% Middle Eastern
    I think she mentioned that she comes from an area of Jalisco where there was little mixing, so I am assuming shes from Los Altos cause that is the only place that is known for that and their high concentration of castizos/criollos
    Do you happen to know if Amerindian percentages are overrepresented because the sample pool consists of mestizos across all dna testing companies or is any one company better at identifying this ethnicity? Which one would have the most accurate read on amerindian dna?

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    Quote Originally Posted by desma View Post
    Do you happen to know if Amerindian percentages are overrepresented because the sample pool consists of mestizos across all dna testing companies or is any one company better at identifying this ethnicity? Which one would have the most accurate read on amerindian dna?
    no one other than MyHeritage uses mestizo reference populations to represent Amerindians
    best companies so far are AncestryDNA and 23andMe

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    Asian history of Mexico






    Term Chino in Colonial Mexico

    Ramos’s definition of the term “chino” reflects a unique understanding of the transpacific slave trade and the origins of some of these people. He wrote, “in these parts, natives of India are called chinos; they all come from the Orient, by way of the Philippines, brought by the Portuguese.” This explanation strongly implies that most chinos were slaves, taken by Portuguese traders from South and Southeast Asia to the Spanish colony in the Philippine Islands, where they then boarded the Manila Galleon bound for Mexico. Ramos knew about the workings of the trade from Catarina, who spoke to him at length about her experience. She testified that Portuguese slavers worked in the Indian Ocean World, and that the mechanisms of the Portuguese trading system reached the Spanish Philippines. These details about the trafficking networks, which crisscrossed the Indian Ocean to the China Sea and Pacific Ocean, were generally unknown to other people in Mexico. With this account, Ramos sought to clarify some of the contemporary confusion regarding the origins of chinos, who were generally thought of as people born on the other side of the Pacific Ocean. The term “chino” generally referred to individuals who traveled on the nao de China (another name for the Manila Galleon); they were people from “the orient [who] came to stay or simply passed through.” Ramos thus described an important distinction: there were chinos who were slaves, and there were also chinos, generally natives of the Philippines, who were free immigrants, itinerant traders, or sailors. All chinos traveled to Mexico on the same ships of the Manila Galleon; the slaves, like Catarina, generally stayed, whereas free chinos had more mobility.

    The presence in Mexico of free immigrants from the Philippines added further complexity to questions regarding where chinos came from, and who they were. Ramos makes several comments about countrymen from the Philippines who lived in Puebla. 7 According to Spanish law, these native people were indigenous vassals, just like the natives of Mexico; they were Indians who owed tribute to the crown in exchange for certain rights and protections. In Mexico, the natives of the Philippines were called Filipinos, Indian chinos (referring to their legal status as indigenous vassals), as well as simply chinos. This confusing nomenclature caused some problems in Mexico, as free natives of the Philippines were sometimes confused with chino slaves and treated as such. For the most part, however, their presence in Mexico encouraged officials to conceive of all chinos as free Indians. Catarina’s hagiographers expressed an ambiguity about her birthplace that reflects the diverse origins of chino slaves. Catarina could not remember her origins because slavers stole her away when she was just a little girl, dragging her through “distant provinces” and confusing her sense of place.
    The accounts of Catarina’s circuitous voyage from Cochin to Manila demonstrate the reach of the Portuguese commercial system and the geographic expanse of the colonial State of India ( Estado da India ), which consisted of all their outposts in Asia. Portuguese traders mainly worked out of Goa with the primary goal of acquiring pepper and silver (from Japan and then from the Spanish Philippines). The trade involved traveling from port to port around the Indian Ocean and China Seas, selling varied merchandise along the way, including slaves, who were among their most profitable commodities. The Portuguese need for silver explains why trading ships carried captives from as far away as Mozambique to sell in Manila, where they exchanged them for American silver.

    The church as an institution played a critical role in the transformation of chinos into Indians. Churchmen grouped chino slaves from Bengal with chinos who were actually from the Spanish Philippines; in doing so, they helped formulate the argument that all chinos were Indians and should thus be protected from slavery as indigenous vassals. In this sense, chinos changed their legal status because the church embraced them as Indians in their proselytizing mission.


    The Diversity and Reach of the Manila Slave Market
    The story of the people who journeyed from the Philippines to Mexico begins in 1565 , when Miguel López de Legazpi finally realized Spain’s long-standing ambition of establishing a colony in Asia. Jerónimo Pacheco, “originally from the eastern islands” and a “native of Bengal,” accompanied Legazpi on his founding voyage. Pacheco had been made to travel from Bengal to Portugal and across the Atlantic to Mexico, where he was assigned the task of “following the religious and people going to the occidental islands”; they needed “an interpreter [ lengua ] who was native of those islands.”

    In 1570, don Martín Enríquez de Almanza, the viceroy of New Spain, ordered the return of fifteen slaves who had recently arrived from the Philippines. In his words, it was unwise “for the natives of the Philippines to think that we consent to their ill-treatment.” Filipino Indians could potentially rebel against Spanish sovereignty if they realized that the colonists planned to sell them into slavery and ship them to Mexico. In addition, the viceroy feared that the few slaves who were Muslims ( moros ) would “dogmatize their sect” among the Indians of Mexico and endanger the missionary project. The viceroy’s efforts to discourage this commerce were in vain. Slaves purchased in Manila were sent to Mexico throughout the seventeenth century.

    The ethnic diversity of the slave population in New Spain came to an end in the late seventeenth century. Previously, natives of the Americas, Asia, and Africa, in addition to their descendants, were all legal chattel. Afterward, the only legal slaves remaining in New Spain had African ancestry. In essence, the transformation of slavery into an institution exclusively dependent on African slave labor involved legal changes. In the early 1670s, the crown categorically freed all Indian and chino slaves, enabling them to join the ranks of free labor. Chinos, moreover, joined the Republic of Indians as a group ( gente ). The colonial government’s effort to locate chino slaves and grant them a new civil status was unprecedented. Individuals categorized as negros, mulatos, pardos, and so on were manumitted throughout the colonial period, but the crown never emancipated them by decree in the way it did for Indians and chinos.





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    Gypsy history of Mexico

    The first Romanis in Mexico arrived with the Spanish during the Colonial era, but it was not until the 19th century that Romanis migrated to the country in significant numbers. Persecution and discrimination in Europe forced many to look for a better life elsewhere. New World countries such as Brazil, Argentina, and Mexico offered an opportunity for Romani people to preserve their nomadic traditions, and many took advantage of the new shipping routes to the continent.



    The Norwegian explorer Carl Lumholtz made six trips through Mexico between 1890 and 1910. He wrote of several encounters with Romanis, including those who traveled in troupes with bears and monkeys in tow.

    The Romanis faced significant prejudice in Mexico. In 1931, a law was passed to prohibit further settlement in the country. While new Romani migrants arrived later under assumed identities, the era of open Romani migration was over. Nevertheless, the minority had already made a significant impact on the culture. While Mexico’s indigenous and Spanish Catholic roots are often celebrated, the Romani heritage, which is still alive and strong today, is often ignored.

    In the early 20th century, Romani caravans were known for traveling from town to town and showing movies to captivated rural audiences. In this way, the Romani minority played a key role as pioneers of cinema in Mexico.


    Romani music is another important element of the culture that continues to thrive in Mexico. Flamenco, a musical and dance style that is typically associated with Spanish Romani people, has long been popular in the country.

    In the southern state of Oaxaca, some musicians sing in Vlax Romani, a dialect of the Romani language that is still spoken today.

    Since 2003, the dance collective Egiptanos has brought spectacular performances of Romani music and dance to Mexican theaters. A celebration of Romani heritage and diversity in Mexico, the show features flamenco, traditional Romani song, and son jarocho, a regional folk musical style that originated in Veracruz, a state with a significant Romani population. One of the most famous Romani–Mexicans is the Veracruz-born composer and writer Alfonso Mejia-Arias, who is a renowned specialist in traditional Japanese music.



    Mexican Spanish has been influence by Romani people, Romani words have been incorporated into Mexican Spanish, these are words we often consider very Mexican yet their origins actually come from the Romani people.

    "In Mexico it is also called caló or caliche. The discovery of the Romani influence in the Mexican calo is due to Max Leopold Wagner in 1919. He offers us a brief history of Mexican calo at the beginning of the 20th century."


    "In Mexico, it is also called caló to the "low" social circles or of delinquency (especially in the city of Mexico), and comes directly from the caló gypsy Spanish, and with an analogous use, that is, the one of the concealment of the uninitiated. Most of the words underwent slight phonetic or meaningful modifications. Here we have some examples, first in Caló Gypsy, and then its corresponding in Mexican Caló:

    Baró (dinero) - Baro (dinero);
    Chavó(muchacho) - Chavo (muchacho)
    Pusca (pistola) - Fusca (pistola)
    Abillar (venir, tener) - Abillar (tener)
    Tarisvel (cárcel) - Taris (policía)
    Dicar (ver) - Licar (ver, vigilar)
    Menda (yo) - Menda (yo)


    The historical memory, expressed in the oral tradition of most of the Roma groups currently living in Mexico, dates back to the 19th century. Between 1863 and 1867 Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria sent contingents of Gypsy families from the territories of the Austro-Hungarian Empire to Mexico to support the consolidation of the Empire of his brother Maximilian.

    This immigration ranged from 1880 to 1900, the year in which a hundred Roma families settled in Veracruz, known as the ludar group, arrived in Mexico.

    In 1931, a modification to the immigration law prohibited the settlement of gypsies in Mexico, despite the fact that a large colony already existed. In the period between the two world wars, many Roma emigrated from the then territory of the Hungarian Kingdom. and they arrived at ports in Mexico and Venezuela. Upon requesting nationality, they identified themselves as "Hungarian", so that they would not be prevented from entering.

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    Juan Esteban Rodríguez, a graduate student in population genetics at the National Laboratory of Genomics for Biodiversity (LANGEBIO) in Irapuato, Mexico, initially planned to study a recent thread in the global tapestry that is Mexican ancestry. Starting in the 19th century, many Chinese immigrants moved to Mexico to construct railroads in the country's northern states. Growing up near the U.S. border, Rodríguez knew this history well, and he wanted to see whether he could identify the Chinese immigrants' genetic contribution to the modern Mexican population.

    But when he searched a database of 500 Mexican genomes—initially assembled for biomedical studies—and sought genetic variants more common in Asian populations, he found a surprise. Some people from northern Mexico did have significant Asian ancestry, but they weren't the only ones. Rodríguez discovered that about one-third of the people sampled in Guerrero, the Pacific coastal state that lies nearly 2000 kilometers south of the U.S. border, also had up to 10% Asian ancestry, significantly more than most Mexicans. And when he compared their genomes to those of people in Asia today, he found that they were most closely related to populations from the Philippines and Indonesia.

    Rodríguez and his adviser, Andrés Moreno-Estrada, a population geneticist at LANGEBIO, turned to the historical record to figure out who these people's ancestors might be. They learned from historians who study ship manifests and other trade documents that during the 16th and 17th centuries, Spanish galleons sailed between Manila and the port of Acapulco in Guerrero, carrying goods and people, including enslaved Asians. Although historians knew of this transpacific slave trade, the origins of its victims were lost. Once they landed in Mexico, they were all recorded as "chinos"—Chinese, says Moreno-Estrada, who will present the work this weekend at the American Association of Physical Anthropologists (AAPA) annual meeting here. "We're uncovering these hidden stories of slavery and people who lost their identities when they disembarked in a whole new country."

    Other researchers study the legacy of another marginalized group in colonial Mexico: Africans. Tens of thousands of enslaved and free Africans lived in Mexico during the 16th and 17th centuries, outnumbering Europeans, and today almost all Mexicans carry about 4% African ancestry. The percentage is much higher in some communities, says geneticist María Ávila-Arcos of the International Laboratory for Human Genome Research in Juriquilla, Mexico. She found that in Afro-descendent communities in Guerrero and Oaxaca, many of which remain isolated, people had about 26% African ancestry, most of it from West Africa.

    Other data also suggest a strong African presence in colonial Mexico. Bioarchaeologist Corey Ragsdale of Southern Illinois University in Edwardsville and his colleagues examined skeletons for dental and cranial traits that tend to be more common among Africans. They estimated that 20% to 40% of the people buried in cemeteries in Mexico City between the 16th and 18th centuries had some African ancestry, as they will present this weekend at the AAPA meeting. "It could be that Africans played as much of a role in developing population structure, and in fact developing the [Spanish] empire, as Europeans did," Ragsdale says.

    Source
    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/...led-modern-dna




    Okay so finally they are doing more research on the Asian ancestry of colonial Mexicans, it is interesting that their closest population were with the Philippines and Indonesia, two Asian nations that made majority of the Asian population of Mexico during the colonial days, and we can see that with the Asian map in the above posts that show it. It is also no surprise that about one third of the samples they gathered from the state of Guerrero had people with significant Asian ancestry.

    Asians are considered the fourth root of Mexico, just like Africans are considered the third root, and this is exactly why, despite what we claim (a mestizo nation), Mexico is actually a diverse country genetically speaking and it is the most diverse nation in Latin America when we only take into account the colonial population.


    Now, what they need to research a bit more is the South Asian ancestry, on the map I posted up above, they made a significant number of the slaves taken to Mexico through the Galleon trade. I have been seeing a lot of Mexicans on 23andMe coming out with South Asian, ranging from 0.4% - 1.2%



    Now back to the SSA ancestry in the Afro communities of Oaxaca and Guerrero, obviously its not West Africa, the problem is like other DNA companies, they do not use actual Central African samples like Angola but the Pygmies. I would like to see that study, because I doubt they used accurate Central African samples, I really doubt they were close to West Africans smh that is what pisses me off about these studies, they are never accurate

    Those Afro communities will most likely also score some Asian ancestry, since both populations were used as slaves, thus they had to have some sort of contact with one another since they both faced the same struggles

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    I am still trying to figure out what does Senegambian/Guinean on 23andMe even mean, everyone seems to get it, I think it could be a proxy for Central Africa. I find that component weird

    Yes I also got it, I wont post my results until I have further evidence that Senegambian is a component being handed out to everyone and its mislabeled

    first of all, in all the DNA companies I have tested, all put me with Central Africans/Bantus
    so why is 23andMe trying to play me for a fool? honestly, I am tired of these companies never using Angolans as a reference sample when thousands of them were shipped to the Americas, primarily in Brazil and Mexico

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celph Titled View Post
    I am still trying to figure out what does Senegambian/Guinean on 23andMe even mean, everyone seems to get it, I think it could be a proxy for Central Africa. I find that component weird

    Yes I also got it, I wont post my results until I have further evidence that Senegambian is a component being handed out to everyone and its mislabeled

    first of all, in all the DNA companies I have tested, all put me with Central Africans/Bantus
    so why is 23andMe trying to play me for a fool? honestly, I am tired of these companies never using Angolans as a reference sample when thousands of them were shipped to the Americas, primarily in Brazil and Mexico
    Um it doesn't mean Central Africa. It's absolutely Senegalese/Guinea. That's probably the most reliable of all the populations in West Africa. Senegalese people score it at almost 100%. CV's get above 85%+ on their SSA side.
    Angolans and Central Africans don't score any of it. Sorry to break it to you.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Celph Titled View Post
    I am still trying to figure out what does Senegambian/Guinean on 23andMe even mean, everyone seems to get it, I think it could be a proxy for Central Africa. I find that component weird

    Yes I also got it, I wont post my results until I have further evidence that Senegambian is a component being handed out to everyone and its mislabeled

    first of all, in all the DNA companies I have tested, all put me with Central Africans/Bantus
    so why is 23andMe trying to play me for a fool? honestly, I am tired of these companies never using Angolans as a reference sample when thousands of them were shipped to the Americas, primarily in Brazil and Mexico
    Angolans can't be used a reference population because Southern Angolans score close to South Africa, while Northern Angolans are indistinguishable from Congolese and so on.

    However Senegalese are genetically homogeneous that's why theirs score are so reliable.
    People in the new world with low SSA tend to have Senegalese/Senegambia because they were the earliest slaves...but they stopped messing with them early because the Muslim Wolof were f*cking up their sh*t.

    Insubordination, Rejection and Revolt

    These African Muslims believed Islam to be morally superior to anything else and it gave them a sense of superiority. They were Muslim men and women and they could only be free. Their complete refusal to accept their situation translated into disobedience and rebelliousness which was unique among the slave population. Islam was a galvanizing force and it became a catalyst for insubordination and rebellion.

    After the first revolt in 1522, the Wolof Muslims revolted in San Juan, Puerto Rico, Santa Marta, Colombia and Panama. Lands separated by vast distances and yet the same group of people were revolting. There were joint African’s allied with Indian revolts in Hispaniola in between 1522 to1532, Mexico 1523, Cuba 1529, Panama between 1550 and 1582, Venezuela 1550, Peru 1560, Ecuador 1599, Guatemala 1627, Chile 1647, Martinique 1650, Florida between 1830 and 1840. In each of these revolts the Spanish officials blamed the African Muslim slaves for either instigating and leading the revolt or enticing the Indians to revolt.

    Attempts to Limit Muslim Slaves

    As a result of these bellicose Muslim slaves from Africa, starting in 1503 the Governor of Hispaniola asked the Spanish crown to put a stop to the importation of African Muslims slaves from West Africa because they ran away and would entice the Indians to revolt. This decree was ignored.

    In 1526, after the first slave revolt, the Spanish crown issued the first cedula (royal decree) outlawing the importation of African Muslims. This decree was ignored.

    In 1531 another decree was issued banning the importation of African Muslims. This decree was also ignored.
    Last edited by stala; 2018-10-12 at 16:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by stala View Post
    Um it doesn't mean Central Africa. It's absolutely Senegalese/Guinea. That's probably the most reliable of all the populations in West Africa. Senegalese people score it at almost 100%. CV's get above 85%+ on their SSA side.
    Angolans and Central Africans don't score any of it. Sorry to break it to you.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Angolans can't be used a reference population because Southern Angolans score close to South Africa, while Northern Angolans are indistinguishable from Congolese and so on.

    However Senegalese are genetically homogeneous that's why theirs score are so reliable.
    People in the new world with low SSA tend to have Senegalese/Senegambia because they were the earliest slaves...but they stopped messing with them early because the Muslim Wolof were f*cking up their sh*t.
    Stala, let me dream pleaaaaaaase...

    I would still like to see more results of Central Africans to come to a conclusion about that component, do you have the ones from Cape Verde? Do you share with other black Africans by the way?

    Also Stala, it has been said Haitians are majority Central Africans, but they also score some of that Senegambian component, so it makes no sense to me, how many of them went to Haiti?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Celph Titled View Post
    Stala, let me dream pleaaaaaaase...

    I would still like to see more results of Central Africans to come to a conclusion about that component, do you have the ones from Cape Verde? Do you share with other black Africans by the way?

    Also Stala, it has been said Haitians are majority Central Africans, but they also score some of that Senegambian component, so it makes no sense to me, how many of them went to Haiti?
    I saw some Angolans and they don't have any senegambian...only way would be through CV Angolans. People in St Tome have Senegambia through CVz who went there as indentured servants.
    All people in the new world have some Senegambia...however you tell it's early because it's alway present in people with very little SSA. You can tell those people absorbed the early SSA however the later group who came they didn't have any contact with.
    Most of the other SSA groups came later as the slave trade ramped up.

    Here are some SSA CV results:

    1
    African Hunter-Gatherer
    0.0%
    Coastal West African
    3.2%
    Nigerian
    0.9%
    Senegambian & Guinean
    31.5%

    Broadly Congolese & Southern East African
    0.2%
    Broadly West African
    2.8%
    Broadly Sub-Saharan African
    3.0%


    2
    African Hunter-Gatherer
    0.0%
    Coastal West African
    6.5%
    Congolese
    0.3%
    Nigerian
    0.1%
    Senegambian & Guinean
    28.1%

    Broadly Northern East African
    0.2%
    Broadly West African
    2.2%
    Broadly Sub-Saharan African
    2.6%


    3
    African Hunter-Gatherer
    0.0%
    Coastal West African
    6.6%
    Nigerian
    0.5%
    Senegambian & Guinean
    45.3%

    Broadly Northern East African
    0.2%
    Broadly West African
    3.3%
    Broadly Sub-Saharan African
    2.7%

    All CV results look like that...I've looked at a bunch of updates. All the other components that you see there are part of Senegambia diversity based on where in Senegambia there Ancestors were from.
    In CV it's common knowledge that three main groups were sent there Wolof, Fulas, and Mande people.
    Last edited by stala; 2018-10-13 at 17:24.

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