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Thread: Genetics studies of Ancient Egyptians?1950 days old

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    everyone knows Nubians are native to their region and have been there for years, it sounds like some Mumbo jumbo you are trying to spew about Nubians. And uniparental markers don't substantiate anything especially when you have not given your sources and when you haven't referenced at what frequency they are found in Ancient Egyptians.
    http://www.egyptvoyager.com/predynastic%20_2.htm

    Naqada is a term used a lot in Predynastic chronology. Naqada is a place located on the west bank of the Nile, around 25 km north of Luxor. Archaeologists began work at Naqada over a century ago; namely Professor Sir W. M. Flinders Petrie and James Quibell of University College London, and Professor John Garstang of Liverpool University. What they found was evidence of an early culture that emerged near the start of the early Predynastic (c. 3800 BCE). This culture persisted throughout the predynastic and stretched as far south as Nubia (Hemamein of Naqada I period)

    Naqada I


    This large site has a geographical spread much wider than the Badarian, and spreads further south into Nubia.Pottery is the dominant form of craftsmanship, with some being decorated with patterns.

    Some scholars agree that the shift from Naqada I to Naqada II was the result of more intense interaction and trade with foreign groups from west Asia. The cultural group spreads with settlements stretching from Nubia to as far north as the Delta.

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    1 - The text you site talks about Nubia and Naqada. It doest not say that Naqadans WERE Nubians or come from Nubia.

    2 - Instead of assuming you are correct about everything why not simply ask for more details? Anyone that has done proper research understands the language spoken by modern people calling themselves "Nubians" has a somewhat recent entry to the Nile. Instead these languages are thought to have originated around modern day Darfur.

    See Here

    Or read this.


    You can also buy or loan This book that goes into detail on it the migrtion, I just finished it.

    IN ANTIQUITY - Using Egyptian language in reference to foreign place names and people, the areas known as "Nubia" were inhabited by Cushitic speakers, Berber speakers, Nilo-Saharan speakers, and even Chadic speakers. It is going to be interesting to see how recent Chadic languages disappeared from the Nile. I would give you a source but you would just ignore it. For now just take my word on it.

    As for uniparentals, you will have to read a DNA report on modern Egypt.
    EDIT - BTW in the other thread I gave some links to Fact finder that speaks of West African DNA in Europe estimated to be Ancient. Do you think this migration somehow skipped over Egypt while leaving the continent?
    Last edited by beyoku; 2014-04-23 at 17:58.

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    Shut the fuck up , what is your theory the people of Naqada were from Yoruban areas in West Africa ,quit screwing around you have been proven wrong once again.



    http://www.unm.edu/~gbawden/328-egpre3/328-egpre3.htm
    2. The early “urban” centers of Naqada, Hierakonpolis and Abydos in Upper Egypt and the settlement center of Qustul, in Lower Nubia illustrate the emergence of the Upper Egyptian system and reveal that in the late predynastic period Egyptian civilization coalesced around a group of towns, each with its surrounding rural hinterland. This early urban pattern never evolved into the Mesopotamian form with its many city-states. Instead, although there were always important towns, these were relatively small in number compared with Sumer and, following the end of Naqada III and the formation of the Egyptian “state” were never again autonomous.

    3. Qustul was the center of a social development, archaeologically known as the Nubia A-Group Culture, located in today’s northern Sudan, that rivaled Upper Egypt in its early development of social complexity, hierarchical society, and centralized government headed probably by a powerful elite individual and his retainers. Qustul, a large settlement, was the center of the Nubia A kingdom to the south of Egypt, which shared some of its culture and centralized and hierarchical developments. Qustul contained a large cemetery with elaborate royal tombs that held offerings decorated in the iconography of Upper Egypt; they also included cattle burials that appear in Hierakonpolis at the same time, indicating cultural connections and/or diffusion. It is probable that the rulers of Nubia A-Group became powerful by controlling the routes by which the small early Upper Egyptian polities acquired valued commodities from further south in Africa (gold, ebony, incense ostrich eggs), and shared with their northern neighbors in the moves towards social complexity. Upper Egyptians conquered the Nubia A-Group Culture at the end of the predynastic period, probably so that the Egyptian rulers could directly control the trade with the south.

    Ancient Nubia
    By Shinnie,


    Your crappy Afro-Centric book you referenced means nothing.
    Last edited by Rebel; 2014-04-23 at 18:29.

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    @ Rebel - you are showing classic anti-intellectualism.

    FIRST of all Notice we are quoting from from same book and the same author.

    The section of the book I link to speaks of the MODERN people. The passage clearly says "The term Nubian today refers only to those who speak the Nubian language" The passage as well as the other links describe the Nubian language, WHERE The Nubian language, other languages related to Nubian and perhaps those that speak it are known to have migrated FROM. ASK a Sudanese person.

    This anti-intellectualism rears its head in everything you say. You are calling a book "Afrocentric" and you source the book yourself. .....Even dumber is the case if you are talking about he Chris Ehret book.

    Secondly, the quote you post speaks of Separate Urban centers. Abydos, Hierakonpolis and Naqada. It doesn't say any of those cultures originate from Nubians. Trust me I have researched the idea extensively. The data that somewhat supports your position you dont yet know about. You then post a quote that infers Qustal to be a Southern Egyptian culture....then you post something saying its a Nubian culture of the A-Group Sudanese.

    If anything you can say Tasian and Badarian are Nubian in origin, that makes sense and can be sourced.
    Naqadans....I dont think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgbk87 View Post
    Based on the supplemental data of the Iosif Lazaridis, Nick Patterson, Alissa Mittnik, et al. study


    In chronological order, the peopling of Egypt looked like this:

    +++=

    Obviously these populations are just the best proxies and not completely accurate.
    That’s sort of what I was thinking too.

    But I would have thought a (Northern) Sudanese people would be the best proxy for the first peopling group? I was under the impression that the earliest peoples were biologically and phenotypically closest to the ancient population of Lower Nubia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    Very little work has been done so far.

    Some low resolution autosomal STRs from the Amarna mummies were released. These matched Sub-Saharan Africans best, and not from the Horn. Then Ramesses III's Y-STR markers were released, also at a low resolution, and reported as E1b1a in the study, based on results from an online predictor tool. But his markers are also a possible match for African E1b1b1 lineages.
    Yeah I was surprised when I saw the link between Amarna and Rameses III with sub-saharan populations from outside the Horn region (I expected a link to SSA, but figured it would be closer to northeast Africans). Seems like the individuals tested could have resembled or been related to SSA groups ancestral to Africans who live in different regions today.

    Question: Could you give a brief explanation on how the results show a possible match for E1b1b1?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race
    Finally, the mtDNA lineage I2 was reported from an Egyptian mummy.
    Which study was that? And from what region and time period was the mummy from?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    There is actually more work on ancient North Sudanese. There is some low resolution Y-SNP data from post-Meroitic Sudanese that matches the moderns fairly well. There are also preliminary reports on the autosomal DNA of a pre-Arab expansion Nubian, who clusters between "Africans" and "Europeans", much like modern North Sudanese.

    Considering how densely populated Ancient Egypt was, I don't expect them to be all that different from modern Egyptians. The further back you go, though, differences might become more notable. Time will tell.
    I personally believe that much of the phenotypes found in modern Egypt were present in ancient times.

    But I think what changed is the proportion that each type can be found in the total population. If there truly was a north/south cline then the earliest population and peoples of Upper Egypt (resembling Badarian and Naqadan who had affinities with Sudanese and southern Africans) gradually got outnumbered by Lower Egyptian types (Delta inhabitants who had relatively more Eurasian affinities, in comparison, though with varying admixture across the area). This was due to lower birthrates in Upper Egypt and/or a larger volume of immigration to Lower Egypt. Immigration could have been internal movement, coupled with small trickles of foreign settlers over time.

    So the population as a whole is largely the same as in the past, but the minorities became the majorities and vice versa.

    I’m basing this theory of demographic shift on evidence such as this:

    “From a base population for the late Predynastic of slightly less than one million, it peaked at around five million in Roman times, with the delta population gradually outstripping that of the valley. In many modern countries, whether the population remains stable or increases or dwindles depends in part upon the natural rate of replacement through births and deaths, and in part upon the balance between immigration and emigration. How much of the upward curve in Butzer’s graph represents one rather than the other?

    A four million increase over three thousand years represents a net increase of around 1,300 per year. If we imagine immigration (voluntary and forced) running at a broad average of 200 per year, which does not seem unreasonable in the light of the various sources, it would represent 15 per cent of that increase, year on year. The cumulative effect on the gene pool as a whole would have been, over several centuries, quite significant, not least because immigrants tend to be at their reproductive peak.”
    Barry Kemp (2006): “Ancient Egypt: Anatomy of a Civilization”, pp. 50-51



    Karl Butzer (1976): “Early Hydraulic Civilization in Egypt” p.83


    What are your thoughts on that? Anyone else, feel free to comment.

    (Go easy on me; I’m still learning)

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    @beyoku: Yes it seems like people’s misinterpretations of the HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes can cause some confusion about whether or not modern Egyptians are more SSA than before.

    @rebel: What about the documented recent migration of people from West Africa like the Fulani and people from Borno. Many of them settled in parts of Sudan within the last few hundred years. Example: In the time of the Dar Fur Sultanate in the 18th-19th centuries, many Fulani and Bornoan immigrants, scholars, and holy men settled there and intermarried with the Fur, founding new lineages.

    That's just during the 18th-19th centuries; inter-migration would have gone on before then too.

    I think it's cases like that, that beyoku was referring to....

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    Thinking of AE solely as some continuation of horners are thoughts from the "Old guard."
    New research or even analysis from older publications can state something different.

    For instance look at the physical profile and analysis of This mummy's remains.
    I wouldn't count the CRANID program as end all be all of accurate genetic affinity but notice the affinity of the remains with the DOGON

    Mind you, East Africans AND Horners are present in the CRANID database.

    Here you have a researching saying the Horus-Osirus cult could be a direct transplantation from Western Africa.

    Has anyone not noticed every recently released bit of ancient data from the region has shown the remains having a 'sub Saharan' affinity, but not connected to the sub Saharans we assumed? From A-Group to DNA tribes, to DNA Consultants and Ramesses III.

    Dont lack imagination. I am an Admin on an E1b1a group, recently a BHI came to spread his rhetoric. Before he was banned someone brought up this scripture.

    Ezekiel 29
    12. "So I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated lands. And her cities, in the midst of cities that are laid waste, will be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands."
    13 “‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. 14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms and will never again exalt itself above the other nations. I will make it so weak that it will never again rule over the nations.

    Ezekiel 30
    23. `I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands.
    26. `When I scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands, then they will know that I am the LORD.'

    Interesting.

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    [QUOTE=Mr. Gaeta;1127970]@beyoku: Yes it seems like people’s misinterpretations of the HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes can cause some confusion about whether or not modern Egyptians are more SSA than

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Gaeta View Post
    @beyoku: Yes it seems like people’s misinterpretations of the HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes can cause some confusion about whether or not modern Egyptians are more SSA than before.

    @rebel: What about the documented recent migration of people from West Africa like the Fulani and people from Borno. Many of them settled in parts of Sudan within the last few hundred years. Example: In the time of the Dar Fur Sultanate in the 18th-19th centuries, many Fulani and Bornoan immigrants, scholars, and holy men settled there and intermarried with the Fur, founding new lineages.

    That's just during the 18th-19th centuries; inter-migration would have gone on before then too.

    I think it's cases like that, that beyoku was referring to....
    The Fulani migration is recent, and plus they are not in abundance, the Fulani were living on fringes of Sudanese society. The Fulani are pastoral as well, tere aren't many groups who were pastoral during the Egyptian periods and they wouldn't of migrated to those far reaches to inhabit Nile Valley kingdoms. Plus you also got to remember, there were many defensive maneuvers the Egyptians and even Nubia a would of began to use if these African foreigners began to flood in there.

    There might of indeed been a supply of slaves from central Africa,but West Africans are not responsible for Egyptians rise.

    Could there be a possibility of some Egyptian groups settling in Southern and West Africa during the Persian Greek,and Roman conquests. Yes of course.


    @beyoku using Biblical prophecies to argue the settlement of west Africans in Egypt is pseudo science.
    Last edited by Rebel; 2014-04-24 at 21:31.

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    @ Rebel - READ AND COMPREHEND. I noted the scripture was "interesting". Furthermore the scripture does not state that "West Africans" would have settled Egypt. The scripture states that EGYPTIANS would be scattered to other surrounding nations and cease to become a great kingdom.

    Oh and please go on about the details of Hpai 3592.
    I posted ancient mtDNA that so far nobody has taken a crack at.
    In your infinite wisdom of African genetics, care to school the board on the findings?......How or how not the data listed jives with the comparison of Ancient and Contemporary Dakhlah oasis dwellers?

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