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Thread: Taxation is theft?1960 days old

  1. #11
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    I'm actually in favor of a progressive tax, at least how it's done in the US. It's not like 55% of the total income is actually taxed. It's just the bracket of income made over 120,000. It's kind of unfair for the people who make a few hundred thousand, since they aren't multi-millionaires or billionaires per se. A flat or regressive tax are the other options, in which both are relatively terrible on such a large scale. But then again, I don't like how the government appropriates tax revenue.

    I don't mind paying higher taxes for the same reasons as Aquisitorz.

    Financially, I don't care about poor people. Morally, I think we should try to bring the poor up for a better society and for the sake of humanity, but they would have to change their outlook on life or it's just a waste. Like some having disdain for wealthier people.

    * I don't know if those figures are correct

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozrage View Post
    I think taxation is good if it's a choice. I would want a system where you could choose where to put your tax money. Of course if you don't pay road tax you shouldn't have access to that. If you don't pay medical tax you shouldn't receive free health care. 55% tax is too much and doesn't motivate people to work hard or being hustled of half of their earnings to a basket budget to pay for things they don't support.

    I want to pay taxes for infrastructure, medicare, wellfare, schools, science etc. But some things I don't want to pay for, such as the TV-license they're forcing upon us. If people want state TV and Eurovision song contests, let those people pay for it. Some more democracy as to where the tax money is spent and I'm all for it.

    But not 55% or even 33% as we have here. 33% to start with then there is extra tax on fuel, so we are getting taxed multiple times.
    The thing is, you can't prevent someone who doesn't pay taxes from using that road. Since all the other people want a road, they will be willing to pay for it, and this person will be able to use it. It's an externality.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Drago
    Those who don't pay income taxes should have less political rights than those who do, especially when it comes to being able to vote.
    The other way is also a problem. Those people or companies with a lot of money and pay a lot of taxes shouldn't equal them exceptions or more political power or heavier vote than a common citizen who pay his share of tax. Sitt strå till stacken. Then it becomes a nation in the hands of the rich and big corporations.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Apple View Post
    The thing is, you can't prevent someone who doesn't pay taxes from using that road.
    Here they would just send an invoice then collect or it will be further economic sanctions if the invoice is not paid in due time. Like paying tax on your vehicle.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Apple View Post
    Since all the other people want a road, they will be willing to pay for it, and this person will be able to use it. It's an externality.
    A what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    A popular libertarian point of view is that taxation is theft.
    It is. Money taken from the rightful earner under threat of force. Don't pay your taxes and armed government types will come after you. It's extortion, like the mafia. Give us an amount we determine and we will protect you. Don't and you'll be punished.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    I think this is an extremist view born out of a greedy, anti-sharing mentality (every penny is mine!).
    Simplistic view. Libertarians are not against voluntary charitable contributions. They are against government thuggery. Taxation is not voluntary. Bill Gates and Warren Buffett donating billions and billions to charities for the betterment of us all, that's entirely voluntary and worth celebrating. If the government seized their assets it would be tyranny.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    I would also go so far as to say it's somewhat social darwinist to advocate complete removal of taxes, because society wouldn't work without common funding for basic stuff such as roads and so on.
    In the USA, individuals and corporations are allowed to adopt highways, which means they pay to upkeep the area and get a sign to advertise their contribution. I'm not saying that it's ideal, only that alternatives exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    I also think it's a very selfish, rude, asshole mentality to whine about how oppressed you are by the government for taxing you 55% of your 150,000 USD per month salary and complain about how people living on shitty wages or welfare who pay little to no taxes, are somehow parasites on 'your money', when in reality the more money you make, the bigger the parasite you are on this planet's resources and contributing to its pollution and the destruction of us all.
    So if I work 100 hours a week, and the state does little for me at all, in your eyes they are entitled to the lion's share of the fruits of my effort, to redistribute to parasites who eat and fuck and do little else for themselves or mankind?

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Are rich people inherently bad people or are they justified in their complaints against taxation?
    They are inherently superior. The self-made ones, anyway. Those born into wealth are biologically weak.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Personally, I don't have much sympathy for rich people. I'm also of the opinion that people who only have money on their mind, are boring personality-wise.
    And I have little sympathy for the poor, having volunteered at homeless shelters in my youth and seeing the same faces year after year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozrage View Post
    Here they would just send an invoice then collect or it will be further economic sanctions if the invoice is not paid in due time. Like paying tax on your vehicle.
    Really? That's nice. I can't even imagine that.

    A what?
    Sorry, I meant a public good. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozrage View Post
    The other way is also a problem. Those people or companies with a lot of money and pay a lot of taxes shouldn't equal them exceptions or more political power or heavier vote than a common citizen who pay his share of tax. Sitt strå till stacken. Then it becomes a nation in the hands of the rich and big corporations.
    Yeah, the thing is big business does have impact on the political system via lobbying, campaign contributions etc.
    There really is no way around it and it's not "all bad" - after all when american companies do well that typically translates into the gen. pop. doing alright
    Goes both ways too, especially on the state level - state legislature votes for concessions/tax breaks to attract big (and small and mid-size) business which typically results in a win-win for the state and the companies attracted by this approach. As an example - automotive industry on the large scale was virtually non-existent in the south until the late 90s. Now it's thriving, bringing jobs and tax money to the states that took the approach I just described to attract these companies.

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    I wonder if it would work to abolish labor taxing and increase taxes on the products we buy significantly. It probably wouldn't, but I think it sounds like a good idea nevertheless.
    Quote Originally Posted by A Finn with experience of anthropology forums
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr. Drago View Post
    Yeah, the thing is big business does have impact on the political system via lobbying, campaign contributions etc.
    There really is no way around it and it's not "all bad" - after all when american companies do well that typically translates into the gen. pop. doing alright
    Goes both ways too, especially on the state level - state legislature votes for concessions/tax breaks to attract big (and small and mid-size) business which typically results in a win-win for the state and the companies attracted by this approach. As an example - automotive industry on the large scale was virtually non-existent in the south until the late 90s. Now it's thriving, bringing jobs and tax money to the states that took the approach I just described to attract these companies.
    I agree that in the industrial capitalist glory days it's not all bad. Those day's are almost lost and local stores with local knowledge and expertise are diminishing as well. Pushed out by foreign or domestic mega-chains. Rural areas are increasingly affected and the inhabitants are losing old skills and professions and become shaped to fit into the globalism drone-company. The state makes people dependent on it from birth. Here it's not really a question if you want to be a part of that civilization or not, if you're not apart of society and homeless and ill prepared for the winter you will not make it very far.

    So unless you're Les Stroud or some other survivalist, you'll have a very bad day. The thought is tempting however, to live in a cabin in some fjord and live entirely by what the land and sea offers, independent from any state.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozrage View Post
    I agree that in the industrial capitalist glory days it's not all bad. Those day's are almost lost and local stores with local knowledge and expertise are diminishing as well. Pushed out by foreign or domestic mega-chains. Rural areas are increasingly affected and the inhabitants are losing old skills and professions and become shaped to fit into the globalism drone-company. The state makes people dependent on it from birth. Here it's not really a question if you want to be a part of that civilization or not, if you're not apart of society and homeless and ill prepared for the winter you will not make it very far.

    So unless you're Les Stroud or some other survivalist, you'll have a very bad day. The thought is tempting however, to live in a cabin in some fjord and live entirely by what the land and sea offers, independent from any state.
    It's a balancing act and there's a flip side to everything.
    I for one, don't want to fuck with planting/growing/harvesting plants, milking cows and even though hunting is awesome to make it a part of the everyday survival will be a bit too much, not too mention unsustainable for millions of ppl.
    This shit is hard and gets old fast. After work, I want to grab a beer (and not have to brew it by the way lol) and watch sports/crank some tunes/kick back in the backyard instead of having to track an animal for days with a spear to feed my family

    As for the big corporations vs. small businesses - also a balancing act.
    Yes, on one hand they destroy SOME jobs, on the other - they BRING jobs while (generally) making shit more affordable in the process.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    I wonder if it would work to abolish labor taxing and increase taxes on the products we buy significantly. It probably wouldn't, but I think it sounds like a good idea nevertheless.
    I agree. Taxing luxury item purchases at a high rate is the lesser evil over income taxation. No-one should have to pay the government to buy a sandwich, but if you decide you want a PS4 or toys for your kid, sure. Tax that. Nobody is making you buy non-essential products. Work, on the other hand, is not optional.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acquisitorz View Post
    2) I find progressive taxation to be unfair for the rich. $155k amonth gets cut in half by the state, while $2000 a month gives the state only a quarter. The $155k guy gives the state $77.5k of income and the $2k/month one gives only $500. doesn't sound very fair for the rich guy imo. We are all unequal by birth, and such progressive taxation is a tool to equalize us.
    I'm not sure what's the story behind progressive taxation or who invented it, but I'm guessing it has to do with diminishing marginal utility. The more money you earn, the less important money becomes, so for someone earning 100 millions a year it doesn't really matter if he only gets to keep like 40 million or 50 million, but for someone earning only 20 thousand every cent counts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margina...rginal_utility
    I don't really mind progressive taxation as long as it's not too steep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozrage View Post
    I think taxation is good if it's a choice. I would want a system where you could choose where to put your tax money. Of course if you don't pay road tax you shouldn't have access to that. If you don't pay medical tax you shouldn't receive free health care. 55% tax is too much and doesn't motivate people to work hard or being hustled of half of their earnings to a basket budget to pay for things they don't support.

    I want to pay taxes for infrastructure, medicare, wellfare, schools, science etc. But some things I don't want to pay for, such as the TV-license they're forcing upon us. If people want state TV and Eurovision song contests, let those people pay for it. Some more democracy as to where the tax money is spent and I'm all for it.
    I dream about a taxation system, where people can choose where their money is allocated. So one could choose to put 10% his taxes to health care, 20% to police, etc. In our current system, it's the parliament and government, who do the budgets and decide where the money goes. I find it very undemocratic, especially when we think of all the shit that EU is spending.

    Quote Originally Posted by dr. Drago View Post
    Those who don't pay income taxes should have less political rights than those who do, especially when it comes to being able to vote. Otherwise we're in danger of the "poor majority" voting for whoever promises to tax the shit out of the "rich minority" to fund social programs on which the "poor majority" depends.
    Some other criteria can be used as well (like say those who don't own property can't vote etc), the point is if "da system" can't function without taxing "the rich" out of 30+ percent of their income then "the rich" gotta have more say.

    I put "rich" and "poor" in quotation marks because unless you're comparing a bum to a billionaire, for the vast majority the line between the two is quite blurry (I'm talking about the USA).
    Wouldn't that kind of system give the power to rich people and corporates? (If we're not being naive, I guess they already have all the power)

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    I wonder if it would work to abolish labor taxing and increase taxes on the products we buy significantly. It probably wouldn't, but I think it sounds like a good idea nevertheless.
    That's what many economists are recommending and what many Western countries have been doing, increasing VAT and decreasing income taxes. That also gives us consumers more power on how we want to spend our money.

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