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Thread: Ancient Egyptians = Caucasoids3579 days old

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    Discovering, and therefore the knowledge, of what racial components were represented in the ancient Egyptian population will not answer the ultimate question behind such an inquiry: what was the source of ancient Egyptian ingenuity? If we discovered Negroid elements or if we discovered Caucasoid elements in the Egyptian aristocracy, what does that tell us about the source of Egyptian ingenuity? Not much. What does it matter if there were Negroid elements in the nobility if they were not the source of the ideas that made Egypt great? The same can be applied to Caucasoid elements to be perfectly objective at this point.

    Now obviously, there was a source, but we don't know what it was or where it came from. There was enough diversity in all strata of Egyptian life (at various points in time) to confound the matter.

    Possibilities:
    1. The Negroid element.
    2. The Caucasoid element.
    3. A Horner-type element.
    4. An element that has no equivalent in the modern world population, an extinct variant of man.
    5. A combination.

    Let's not be to hasty to jump on the latter just because we know diversity existed in Ancient Egypt. Diversity doesn't mean everyone contributes an equal amount of ideas. Also, different eras in Egypt showed different ratios represented of each element, but their representation doesn't equal a proportionate representation of ideas.

    It would not matter if the entire Egyptian population was Negroid if they were not the source of the ideas themselves. We know that there was an element in ancient Egyptian culture that was technologically very advanced, but we don't even know the standard of living for the rest of the population (tho it's hard to tell with rudimentary material culture, in that state it is best gauged on degree of civility and human behavior, which we will never know). This is important to know. The general populous could have been subjects and by today's standards, little more than a 3rd world slum. So knowing what they were does not tell us about the source of the ideas.

    It is the source of the idea that is important and nothing we know about Egypt can answer this question, excluding common sense (subconscious/quasi-conscious probability) to be objective.

    Another thing that may confound the matter is that we try to correlate the racial past based on modern equivalents. The diversity of Africa is great and may have had greater homogeneous variation in the past. There could have been a subspecies of man now extinct that was the source of Egyptian ingenuity. If so, no one can associate themselves with that subspecies even if they are partly descendant from them. Actually, no one, even without the possibility of an extinct group, can claim glory for what the ancients created because the ancients, as their genetic configuration existed then, no longer exists now. Even if we conclude modern Egyptians are genetically closest to the ancients, does not prove they are still capable or that they were the source of the ideas that made Egypt great.

    The above doesn't mean that I don't have my theories, but I do understand that my conclusions are not made of concrete evidence. Some of the parts are, but not the conclusion. They are largely based on probability, social and historical patterns.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Nephilim View Post
    Anicent Egyptians were mostly Caucasoids but they sure did not look like Northern Europeans. They are mostly North African Caucasoids, who adopted to the local climates of the area developed darker skin then Europeans, and similar to that of Arabians.

    Were Negroid elements present in Ancient Egypt, yes both slave and free. Some came as merchants and traders, others as slaves, and some as diplomats. Their some Egyptians at the time that did have Negroid admixture, which like today its minor. However as you move from North to South, the Negroid admixture becomes greater.


    Egyptians are the same people, they just shifted from their langauge to Arabic. The Egyptian mixed bloodline was in the reality, but the common people stayed who they are. Since Egypt was ruled by waves of foreginers.

    Egyptians were dark skined Caucasoid race. This in fact shown in how the potrait themselves. They differed the Semities, Negroes, and Europeans with each having a particular skin color. If I find the potrait i will posted here
    Come on man, leave that old debunked anthropology to rest, Ancient Egyptians closest relatives were Nubians, at least according to a new study:
    An Examination of Nubian and Egyptian biological distances: Support for biological diffusion or in situ development?


    Homo. 2009;60(5):389-404. Epub 2009 Sep 19.


    Godde K.
    Department of Anthropology, University of Tennessee, Knoxville, 250 South Stadium Hall, Knoxville, TN 37996, USA. [email protected]

    Many authors have speculated on Nubian biological evolution. Because of the contact Nubians had with other peoples, migration and/or invasion (biological diffusion) were originally thought to be the biological mechanism for skeletal changes in Nubians. Later, a new hypothesis was put forth, the in situ hypothesis. The new hypothesis postulated that Nubians evolved in situ, without much genetic influence from foreign populations. This study examined 12 Egyptian and Nubian groups in an effort to explore the relationship between the two populations and to test the in situ hypothesis. Data from nine cranial nonmetric traits were assessed for an estimate of biological distance, using Mahalanobis D(2) with a tetrachoric matrix. The distance scores were then input into principal coordinates analysis (PCO) to depict the relationships between the two populations. PCO detected 60% of the variation in the first two principal coordinates. A plot of the distance scores revealed only one cluster; the Nubian and Egyptian groups clustered together. The grouping of the Nubians and Egyptians indicates there may have been some sort of gene flow between these groups of Nubians and Egyptians. However, common adaptation to similar environments may also be responsible for this pattern. Although the predominant results in this study appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis, the in situ hypothesis was not completely negated.



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    More info from the fulltext:
    Discussion

    The clustering of the Nubian and Egyptian samples together supports this paper's hypothesis and demonstrates that there may be a close relationship between the two populations. This relationship is consistent with Berry and Berry (1972), among others, who noted a similarity between Nubians and Egyptians. If Nubians and Egyptians were not biologically similar, one would expect the scores to separately cluster by population (e.g. Nubians compared to Nubians would have small biological distances, and Nubians compared to Egyptians would have high biological distances). However, this was not the case in the current analysis and the results suggest homogeneity between the two populations. Many of the samples that are similar to one another, between the two populations, are separated by great amounts of time (e.g. Kerma and Badari). These similarities over time make sense because, as Konigsberg (1990) asserted, as time elapses, related groups become more genetically similar. In order to explicate the meaning behind all of these findings, the results here must be tempered by the DNA evidence. Both mtDNA (Krings et al., 1999) and Y-Chromosome data (Hassan et al., 2008; Keita, 2005; Lucotte and Mercier, 2003) indicate that migrations, usually bidirectional, occurred along the Nile. Thus, the osteological material used in this analysis also supports the DNA evidence.

    Interpretation of the results framed by several of the groups’ histories helps to elucidate the subtle relationships depicted in the PCO scatter plot. The predynastic sample from Badari occupies a complex position in Egyptian history. The Badarians are Egypt's oldest agriculturalists and produced some of the earliest known pottery (Hassan, 1986) that predated state formation in Egypt. Badarian crania, in comparison to dynastic groups, are slight and less robust than their later counterparts (Angel, 1972; Morant, 1935; Stoessiger, 1927). Stoessiger (1927) likened the gracile nature of the Badarians to the gracile nature of the people from Naqada, but she pointed out that the Badarians are more prognathic. On this basis, many have postulated that the Badarians are relatives to South African populations (Morant, 1935 G. Morant, A study of predynastic Egyptian skulls from Badari based on measurements taken by Miss BN Stoessiger and Professor DE Derry, Biometrika 27 (1935), pp. 293–309.Morant, 1935; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Irish and Konigsberg, 2007). The archaeological evidence points to this relationship as well. (Hassan, 1986) and (Hassan, 1988) noted similarities between Badarian pottery and the Neolithic Khartoum type, indicating an archaeological affinity among Badarians and Africans from more southern regions. Furthermore, like the Badarians, Naqada has also been classified with other African groups, namely the Teita (Crichton, 1996; Keita, 1990), while the Gizeh sample clustered with the Maghreb and Sedment (Dynasty IX Egyptians) (Keita, 1990).


    Nutter (1958) noted affinities between the Badarian and Naqada samples, a feature that Strouhal (1971) attributed to their skulls possessing “Negroid” traits. Keita (1992), using craniometrics, discovered that the Badarian series is distinctly different from the later Egyptian series, a conclusion that is mostly confirmed here. In the current analysis, the Badari sample more closely clusters with the Naqada sample and the Kerma sample. However, it also groups with the later pooled sample from Dynasties XVIII–XXV. The unusual grouping of Badari, Naqada, Kerma, and the later Dynastic pooled sample may have been a product of the mixed nature of the pooled sample. The effects of pooled samples have been demonstrated in Nubians by obscuring relationships and creating a falsely close affinity between it and the samples it clusters with (Godde, 2009a). Moreover, affinities among the Badarian, Naqada, and Kerma samples have been revealed by other authors (Keita, 1990; Nutter, 1958) and it is no surprise that this relationship exists in the data here.

    Relationships among Badari, Naqada, and Kerma have not always been overt in the skeletal data. Berry et al. (1967) concluded from their nonmetric analysis that their Badarian sample differed significantly from Naqada and Kerma, but was closely related to the Gizeh sample. Their study included the same samples as this analysis, but yielded results that are different from the current study and the craniometric research. Berry et al. (1967) employed a completely different range of statistics, which may account for the difference between the two conclusions. However, Berry and her coauthors also noted homogeneity across all the Egyptian groups, including Naqada and those that pre- and post-date the sample. This is indeed the case here, as is evidenced in the PCO plot; the Egyptians appear to be relatively homogeneously grouped. Some Badarian crania also classified well with the Gizeh sample (Keita, 1990).

    The close clustering of Badari and Naqada with Kerma exemplifies the possible relationship of Nubians to Egyptians. Originally, the Nubian A-Group was thought to be Badarian in origin (Reisner, 1910). However, later work (Adams, 1977; Godde, 2009a) established that the A-Group were actually Nubian. Comparisons of C-Group and Pan-Grave Nubians to Badari and Hierakonpolis separate Badari from the other samples, indicating no biological affinities with these earlier Nubian groups (Godde, 2009b). The reoccurring notation of Kerma affinities with Egyptian groups is not entirely surprising. Kerma was an integral part of the trade between Egypt and Nubia. Collett (1933) concluded that Kerma was originally inhabited by Egyptians with neighboring Nubian settlements. Her investigation of the site pointed towards continuous Egyptian occupation of some sort at the site throughout the Kerma time period. This continued presence at Kerma is an optimal condition for gene flow to occur between the two populations.

    Nubian groups have also been scrutinized as to their relationship with other Nubians. Both the Meroitic and X-Group were originally postulated to be foreign peoples migrating into Lower Nubia (Adams, 1968; Nielsen, 1970). These ideas were based on changes in pottery around the beginning of each of the respective time periods. However, the archaeological evidence actually showed slow change in form over time (Adams, 1977) and the biological evidence demonstrated a similar trend in the skeletal data (e.g. Godde, in press; Van Gerven et al., 1977). These conclusions negate the possibility of invasion or migration causing the shifts in time periods. The results in this study are consistent with prior work; the Meroites and X-Group cluster with the remaining Nubian population and are not differentiated.

    Despite the biological similarities between the two populations, the Nubians appear relatively homogeneous. The homogeneity is consistent with Carlson and Van Gerven's (1979) in situ hypothesis, but contradicts the findings of Buzon (2006). Buzon (2006) found a high level of heterogeneity in the Nubian samples she examined, including individuals from Kerma and the C-Group. Moreover, the Egyptian samples in her study were homogeneous overall, consistent with Berry et al. (1967) and the results in this paper. However, the levels of homogeneity appear to be similar within Nubians and within Egyptians in this study. The differences between this research and Buzon's (2006) work may be related to the statistics used. Buzon's (2006) goal was not to look at biological affinities; rather, she was trying to establish identity among her individuals by associating it with archaeological material. While this paper used a biological distance approach to investigate past population relationships, her paper used factor analysis, principal components, and a least squares regression. Although these (hers and those used here) statistics all have a solid methodological basis, they measure population relationships in two different manners and the results between them are not entirely comparable.

    Gene flow may account for the homogeneity across these Nubian and Egyptian groups and is consistent with the biological diffusion precept. Small geographic distances between groups allow for the exchange of genes. One of the Nubian groups in this analysis is located in Upper Egypt (Hesa/Biga), near Egyptian occupation, and contact between the two populations may have been commonplace. Specifically, Nubians were often captured and enslaved by Egyptians to build pyramids, or employed by the Egyptian army (Trigger, 1976). Occasionally, Nubians were even directed to fight other Nubians as part of their duties as troops (Trigger, 1976). Moreover, some groups of Nubians allied with the Egyptians for the conquest of Nubian areas, primarily during Dynasty I (Trigger, 1976). Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, trade between Nubians and Egyptians flourished at Kerma and Meroe, during the time periods named after the sites, and enabled contact for potential gene flow. As a result of their respective histories, the multitude of interactions between them, geographic locations, and their biological composition, it appears that gene flow was possibly occurring between the two populations.

    The similarities uncovered by this study may be explained by another force, adaptation. As stated above, the results appear to support the biological diffusion hypothesis because the Nubian and Egyptian groups are biologically similar. However, this resemblance may be indicative of a common adaptation to a similar geographic location, rather than gene flow. Carlson and Van Gerven (1979) stated this idea in reference to common adaptations of Nubian, Paleolithic, and aboriginal Australian populations. Additionally, Carlson (1976), Prowse and Lovell (1995), Van Gerven (1982), and Van Gerven et al., 1977 D. Van Gerven, G. Armelagos and A. Rohr, Continuity and change in cranial morphology of three Nubian archaeological populations, Man 2 (1977), pp. 270–277. View Record in Scopus | Cited By in Scopus (9)Van Gerven et al. (1977) also recognized this form of natural selection as a mechanism for in situ biological change; Egypt and Nubia have similar terrain and climate. Because of the similarity between and the overlapping of the two territories that would require similar adaptations to the environment, common adaptation cannot be discounted.

    Sample size may have unduly influenced the results in this analysis. Four of the samples were represented by less than 30 individuals, while several of the remaining samples numbered close to 200 individuals. Moreover, only a small number of groups (six) from each population were examined in this study. Observations of more and larger population samples may produce different findings.

    In summation, a portion of the in situ hypothesis in Nubians is supported in this paper, namely homogeneity. Gene flow appears likely between the Egyptians and Nubians, although common adaptations to a similar environment may have also been a factor in their cranial similarities. This study does not rule out the possibility that in situ biological evolution occurred at other times not represented by the samples in this analysis. Further research should incorporate more populations the Nubians were in contact with, to further shed light on Nubian population structure. Additionally, Konigsberg's (1990) spatial–temporal isolation model should be applied to the dataset here to further explicate the results.



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    Excellent posts, guys. Keep it up. I hope you don't mind, Game Theory, that I tidied up your posts by adding the [quote] tag. It's a general guideline on the forum to use the quote feature, in order to not confuse what members write and the authors they cite.

    I'll answer soon when I have some more time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post



    I'd like to hear from all the Afrocentrists with their usual insinuations that the ancient Egyptians were of Negroid stock, your opinion on this study. Me personally, I seriously doubt the original ancient Egyptians ( you know, those who were responsible for the actual Egyptian civilisation ) were of Negroid race. But surely, some influx of Negroids occurred in Upper Egypt at various times:




    I totally agree with you.

    I think they were a ancient people of own distinctive human variation ( parallel comparison is dark-skinned inhabitants in the Indian sub-continent,they're DNA tested genetically 90% Caucasoid.No,they aren't Mongoloid and neither do they have exact facial appearance of modern day Europeans ) in the modern definition of " general " Caucasoid racial group.They looked nothing like European people of past and present,rather had complexion closer to nearby populations of Arabia peninsula and neighboring E African kingdoms.I speculate a few had facial features similiar to SSA negros ( they too have different phenotypes,some dark brown-skinned ones have Mongoloid features like flat-nose and chinky eyes ,but they belong to Negroid racial grouping not Mongoloid ),like thicker lips and curly hair due to geographical climates.

    Same as anywhere else in the world history,they have intermixed with foreign invaders and conquered peoples of Egytian Empire.



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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Be that as it may, the sculptures of the Egyptian rulers were mostly of Caucasoid-looking phenotypes (I mean seriously, they did not look thiopid).
    Aren't thiopids metrically Caucasoid? Many sculptures, albeit Caucasoid-looking, could actually be depicting thiopid individuals.

    You can use the "straight hair" argument, but don't forget Egyptian rulers had their hair shaven and wore wigs (and a big portion of the population too, if I'm not mistaken).



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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnabar View Post
    Aren't thiopids metrically Caucasoid? Many sculptures, albeit Caucasoid-looking, could actually be depicting thiopid individuals.

    You can use the "straight hair" argument, but don't forget Egyptian rulers had their hair shaven and wore wigs (and a big portion of the population too, if I'm not mistaken).
    Horners are Elongated Africans and whatever similarity they have with so called "caucasoids" is mere coincidence and or happenstance, they're not metrically "Caucasoid" and saying so implies some sort or descent from such people. Their phenotype evolved long before any i people called "Caucasoids" existed. At any rate the two are separated from each other by a number of traits.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnabar View Post
    Aren't thiopids metrically Caucasoid? Many sculptures, albeit Caucasoid-looking, could actually be depicting thiopid individuals.
    They're more like somewhere in between Caucasoids and Negroids.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cinnabar View Post
    You can use the "straight hair" argument, but don't forget Egyptian rulers had their hair shaven and wore wigs (and a big portion of the population too, if I'm not mistaken).
    Well it's not only about straight hair. Their skull shape and certain pigmentation didn't point to sub-Sahara Africa.
    Quote Originally Posted by Game Theory View Post
    Horners are Elongated Africans and whatever similarity they have with so called "caucasoids" is mere coincidence and or happenstance, they're not metrically "Caucasoid" and saying so implies some sort or descent from such people. Their phenotype evolved long before any i people called "Caucasoids" existed. At any rate the two are separated from each other by a number of traits.
    Nonsense, it's not at all a mere coincidence. Just look at ethioboy, I'm at 72.xx% genetically similar with him, whereas I and every other Caucasoids on this forum are somewhere between 68-69% genetically similar with the Nigerian person (real life Nigerian person used as a demo example on 23andMe).

    To call it coincidence, is self-deception. And no, East Africans are not descended from a parent population to Caucasoids. It's most likely admixture from invading Semites and Europeans in pre-historical times, or something like that.

    In any case, it doesn't help out Afrocentric theories in the field of Egyptology. Because if East African Horners are somehow your best shot on what the ancient Egyptian race was and looked like, then you're clearly invalidating the concept that the ancient Egyptians were of Negroid race.

    Also, the Egyptian civilisation was geographically more northern than Ethiopia/Somalia. Even in Upper Egypt, Luxor, Thebe and cities like that, there were clearly Caucasoid elements. I would personally liken it to the USA, where the northern part of the country is mostly Caucasoid, whereas the southern part of the country has significant Negroid elements. It was probably something similar in ancient Egypt (although not necessarily northern European; probably Middle Eastern Caucasoids similar to modern Egyptians).

    Thutmose III, can you honestly with a straight face say he looked thiopid? If anything, he looked straight out of the Mediterranean, possibly the Middle East:



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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    They're more like somewhere in between Caucasoids and Negroids.
    Are you really so sure abt? I mean it could possible be true for certain Horn populations but it does not stand for the majority. Just for example Somalis alone are 85% SSA and only 15% Eurasian, even tribes from Cameroon hve more Euroasian DNA than Somalis, over 20%.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    It's most likely admixture from invading Semites and Europeans in pre-historical times, or something like that.
    Its more of invasions from asiatics throughout the millennia that destroyed rather than create AE civilisation. A change in demographics is what eventually resulted in the death of such a civilisation

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Thutmose III, can you honestly with a straight face say he looked thiopid? If anything, he looked straight out of the Mediterranean, possibly the Middle East
    Again are you so sure abt that




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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    They're more like somewhere in between Caucasoids and Negroids.

    Well it's not only about straight hair. Their skull shape and certain pigmentation didn't point to sub-Sahara Africa.
    There skull shape, body proportions and pigmentation are certainly within the range of values for sub-Saharan Africa and being intermediate doesn't mean being a mix of two extremes. The elongated African physical type has been in existence since the Upper Paleolithic with continuity up until now, so its incorrect to say their skull shape doesn't point to sub-Saharan Africa. AEs morphologically are closest to modern day Somalis than they are to people in the Middle East and Europe and where does Somalia lie? In sub-Saharan Africa!





    To call it coincidence, is self-deception. And no, East Africans are not descended from a parent population to Caucasoids. It's most likely admixture from invading Semites and Europeans in pre-historical times, or something like that.
    No it is not due to mixture from invading Semites and Europeans, there's no proof of this Elias, no one even knows what Semites in southern Arabia even looked like in prehistoric times and the modern populations can't be used as surrogates for the prehistoric ones, because no continuity has been shown and we don't know what they looked like, as for Europe, LMAO, there is no way any Europeans migrated into the Horn during prehistoric times and even all the above were true why are Horners dark skinned and tropically adapted, have no light eyes and light hair?

    In any case, it doesn't help out Afrocentric theories in the field of Egyptology. Because if East African Horners are somehow your best shot on what the ancient Egyptian race was and looked like, then you're clearly invalidating the concept that the ancient Egyptians were of Negroid race.
    "Negroid" isn't a race as it it used by some in this forum, its simply a subtype of tropical African diversity.

    Also, the Egyptian civilisation was geographically more northern than Ethiopia/Somalia. Even in Upper Egypt, Luxor, Thebe and cities like that, there were clearly Caucasoid elements. I would personally liken it to the USA, where the northern part of the country is mostly Caucasoid, whereas the southern part of the country has significant Negroid elements. It was probably something similar in ancient Egypt (although not necessarily northern European; probably Middle Eastern Caucasoids similar to modern Egyptians).
    Elias there's no proof that AE is prehistoric times was populated from the Middle East and or Europe, none. The evidence indicates they were closely akin alike to their Nubian neighbors. As foreign migration became more heavy they began to look like what they are today, but only after thousands of years of slow but steady migration from the outside.



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    EliasAlucard (2009-11-08)

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