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Thread: Paleoeuropeans and East Iranian Peoples3449 days old

  1. #11
    Junior Member Otenor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    The early Indo-Iranians included individuals of both types, from the really long headed Corded types to much more robust and round headed ones, and everything in between.
    You might be right

    ---------- Post added 2010-04-13 at 08:16 ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Who the hell wrote this shitty Judeopedia article? It doesn't cite sources, it totally goes against NPOV and probably violates various wiki policies like no original research and shit like that. It will most likely be deleted or entirely rewritten.
    The same article did exist in Russian wikipedia for a long time but in much less informative form.Half of the article is a translation from Russian wikipedia ----the other part about east-iranians---I don't know!

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  4. #12
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    I wonder if Kalash has any connection to Kushan/Yuezi ? There is that one famous anthrofora pic about Kalash girl with very North Europoid features.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karhunkynsi View Post
    I wonder if Kalash has any connection to Kushan/Yuezi ? There is that one famous anthrofora pic about Kalash girl with very North Europoid features.
    Kalash? Now it doesn't matter! Couple of days ago I was just reading Russian wikipedia, find and post english version of that article in this forum but now it is deleted. That Article was young (something like 10-5 days), and could be improved. Information the same like in Russian version but with PICTURES........ Seems like someone from this forum helped it being deleted. The wiki admins deleted even history .....Instead there is some [email protected] about "scientific racism in USSR"--LOL its like there was Racism in Soviet Union LOL. Also I have found that source---Alexander bayar "Secret history of Tatars" in electronic version
    http://kitap.net.ru/bayar.php It is in Russian so I will start read it right now.
    Russian version here
    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Палеоевропейцы
    If I will be online over the next weeks I will try to find the pictures in Russian sources and post them here.....Good luck.
    Last edited by Otenor; 2010-04-13 at 15:06. Reason: link

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    It comes from some book called The Secret History of the Tatars, by A. Bayar.

    If real, this statue would be a pretty mind blowing discovery in the context of the latest ancient DNA results from that part of the world.
    It is real, and it has been known for a few decades now since it was unearthed by Soviet archeologists.

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    I think when it comes to the ancient Caucasoid populations of Central Asia (From Khorasan to Xinjiang) we need to distinguish between two sub-groups. One is the Tocharian element that has a striking resemblance to Northern/Western Europeans (red/blond hair, blue/green eyed, etc...) and was strongly represented in ancient central Asia, esp. in the eastern part of the region (Tarim basin/Xinjiang). The type seems to have been largely absorbed by the Turkic Uyghurs by the 8-9th century AD. The physical features of this ancient group can sometimes be seen in Uyghurs. The other group and what I assume to be the larger one is the Indo-Iranian, which can be found in relatively unmixed form in Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and in more diluted/mixed form in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. This latter group tends to be more mediterranean/Irano-Afghan in terms of race.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgh View Post
    I think when it comes to the ancient Caucasoid populations of Central Asia (From Khorasan to Xinjiang) we need to distinguish between two sub-groups. One is the Tocharian element that has a striking resemblance to Northern/Western Europeans (red/blond hair, blue/green eyed, etc...) and was strongly represented in ancient central Asia, esp. in the eastern part of the region (Tarim basin/Xinjiang). The type seems to have been largely absorbed by the Turkic Uyghurs by the 8-9th century AD. The physical features of this ancient group can sometimes be seen in Uyghurs. The other group and what I assume to be the larger one is the Indo-Iranian, which can be found in relatively unmixed form in Afghanistan and Tajikistan, and in more diluted/mixed form in Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. This latter group tends to be more mediterranean/Irano-Afghan in terms of race.
    Well the Indo-Iranians derive from the Andronovo and Timber-Grave tribes...

    Central European origins of the early Indo-European steppe tribes

    Ancient Siberians carrying R1a1 had light eyes

    And is seems the earliest Tarim Basin Caucasoids were related to them.

    Bronze Age Tarim Basin "Caucasoids" carried R1a1 (and European mtDNA lineages too)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Well the Indo-Iranians derive from the Andronovo and Timber-Grave tribes...

    Central European origins of the early Indo-European steppe tribes

    Ancient Siberians carrying R1a1 had light eyes

    And is seems the earliest Tarim Basin Caucasoids were related to them.

    Bronze Age Tarim Basin "Caucasoids" carried R1a1 (and European mtDNA lineages too)
    I agree that they were related and shared the R1a1 haplotype but it doesn't exclude the possibility that they had a mediterranean phenotype. After all many Iranians today (esp. in eastern Iran) carry that haplotype but still have a mediterranean appearance. The Tocharians had a more slavic/Germanic appearance but I think the Indo-Iranians (Sogdians, Bactrians, etc...) probably were more Irano-Afghan, Armenoid, etc...similar to the Tajiks and Pashtuns who still live in the region.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karhunkynsi View Post
    I wonder if Kalash has any connection to Kushan/Yuezi ? There is that one famous anthrofora pic about Kalash girl with very North Europoid features.
    The Kalash are not really genetic outliers as far as I know. They are very similar to their neighbors and score a significant amount of South Eurasian. As for their rates of blondism and whatnot, it probably is a bit higher since they are kinda isolated/inbred and preserved those traits better, but I doubt it is at European levels like many seem to believe.

    The Kushan were Bactrians (East Iranics) and lived in Northern Afghanistan. The Kalash are a Dardic (Indo-Aryan) speaking group and in a geographically distant place. Their religious customs resemble Hinduism somewhat. The Bactrians would have had different (but not completely unrelated) religious customs. The thought of the Bactrians living as a lone animist tribe in some mountains they had no historic presence in doesn't make sense to me.

    The Hindu Kush region (Northwest Pakistan, Eastern Afghanistan) was originally Indic (Gandhari, Dardic) and then became East Iranian relatively recently. There are also countless non-Kalash people that have that pseudo-Europoid look among them in the Hindu Kush region including their fellow Dardic speakers such as the Shin, Kho, Pashayi, etc. in addition to the Pashtuns and Nuristanis (who were animist until recently) as well.

    So no, the Kalash are not of Bactrian descent. Their look likely just used to be more common in the past (at least among certain communities), and still does exist outside their ethnicity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgh View Post
    many Iranians today (esp. in eastern Iran) carry that haplotype but still have a mediterranean appearance.
    They seem to be mostly descended from the pre-aryan population.

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