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Thread: Protestant work ethic explains why Northern Europe is more industrialized than Southern Europe?1860 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by inquisitive View Post
    I don't know what to make of this. Marxist theorists suggest that industrialized work ethic is a response to the demands of industrialization than the other way around.



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pro..._of_Capitalism
    Kind of. I don't think it's racial, but rather, northern Europe, once free from the Pope's evil grasp flourished. Germany, England, and the Scandinavians countries, as well as jews from the said countries are nearly completely responsible for the modern scientific world.

    Again, it's the oppressive Catholic church which kept Europe in the hole.

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    I think the original premise needs to be taken in a historical context, when religious affiliation probably had a greater actual effect upon people. There may have been greater freedom to compete in a Protestant environment due to reasons such more personal freedom and - perhaps more importantly, a greater emphasis upon the individual, as opposed to the communal. When the individual took precedence, people were more willing to seek profit (even at the expense of others). The ability to gain profit, without guilt, is probably the greatest reason for the "Protestant work ethic" succeeding.

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    Thumbs up Protestant work ethic explains the origins of capitalism not level of industrialisation

    Hmmm, protestant work ethic doesnt directly affect the level of industrialization today but it does explain the origin of capitalism (high level of trust, humbleness that led to reinvestment, etc) and why protestant Europe is more wealthy and advanced than catholic Europe with great exceptions.

    Protestantism has had the following historic effects which are partly still there in mainstream society:

    - Salvation through work (people work more and identify more with ones work)
    - Humbleness: the money that is generated is not allowed for use in luxury.. so money is reinvested (one of the cornerstones of capitalism). For a close look: compare architecture of protestant Netherlands with its catholic neighbor Belgium! Same ethnicity and culture with just one difference!
    - Honesty, one cannot confess and get rid of ones sins.. and protestantism has been very strict until the last 50 years so people were very afraid to sin (lie, cheat, steal).

    All the least corrupt countries are majority reformation (anglican, lutheran, calvinist, reformed) with the lutheran least corrupt.
    http://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results

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    The work ethic is only partially behind it. Knowledge is the most important reason. Germanic countries have respect for knowledge. In antiquity it used to be south Europeans who were ahead in the knowledge race, and previously, it was Semites. Knowledge is what creates industries, technology and advanced economies.
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    The Northen Europeans probably decided to become more industrialized because it was the time and age to due to rising population, production, demand, and more money due to large empires. Spain and Portugal were declining at that time and since they had less money and were weaker they weren't in a position to industrialize a lot while Italy could of because they were a young and powerful country. If this happend a hundred or two hundred years earlier then Spain,Portugal and the rest of Southern Europe would be even more powerful, with their vast empires, large amounts of wealth, manpower etc, they would of dominated Europe and Southern Europe would have been more industrilized than Northen or Central Europe but it didn't happen.

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    Please read the book.

    Weber says : Protestantism today is not like Protestantism back then, when Calvinism infected half of Europe. Calvin said that manking is divided among those "chosen" by God to be saints and those chosen to be damned. Calvinism is the belief in destiny, no matter what you do, the outcome is already decided. How do you know if you are destined to Heaven? Calvin says: the mule knows who rides her when she sees the road she's being told to travel. If she's in a dark and miserable road, she knows she's being driven by the devil. But if your road is green and nice, you're among the chosen ones! So people started to care not only about satisfying their physical needs, but about winning over their neighbor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    OK, Norway before they found out their Oil deposits was way poorer country (in interbellum period there were Norwegian workers employed in polish port of Gdynia, see how the things can change in relatively short period). Yet the trick is, once they started to cash on the resources they have not become a Gulf-like country but succeeded in sharing the national wealth into all Norwegians (Kudos!), faith?

    Nah, rather the ingrained need to help each of your folk, that is hard learned lesson of generations of people living in very harsh environment, one year you can have a bad harvest, next year it might be your neighbour, who just helped your family to survive this last winter.
    This is true. And that's because of the socialism in the Germanic and Nordic countries, and socialism is, when done right, pro-people. And socialism is a Christian thing:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

    So, Muslim oil nations with their über-capitalism is why you have super rich dictators, and the common people being pretty much slaves. America too btw, is heading in that direction nowadays:

    “We all too often have socialism for the rich and rugged free market capitalism for the poor.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.

    Socialism = sharing of the resources to everyone. Capitalism = maximum profit to a select few.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    So basically the real reason is in the pre-christian layer of North vs. south Division. It's more likely for hunter gatherers to share their game on "daily" basis to peasants to share their crops. Christendom is, in fact, a Mediterranean invention.
    Actually, sharing is very much a Christian thing, and I doubt hunter-gatherers shared the meat with everyone aside from their immediate close kin. It's not like the Vikings were socialists you know. And I would go so far as to say that the Nordic mentality, which is very much frugal with money (hence the economic success of the Germanic countries, and also Israel for that matter), is more tied to the harsher climate in the north than any sharing mentality is. The Scandinavians and Finns who oppose higher taxes are more representative of hunter-gatherers than the pro-high taxes Nordics. If you go to the Mediterranean countries, and especially the Arab world, it's considered shameful and rude not to give guests food. In northern Europe however, that mentality isn't nearly as common.

    Anyway, Max Weber has written about the Protestant work ethic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pr..._of_Capitalism

    ^^ Personally, I think Christianity has made Germanic peoples more socialist and willing to share resources. Before that, before Christianity, in not just northern Europe but also in for example the Roman Empire, proprietary ownership of resources was the norm, and it still is to a large degree today in Europe and elsewhere in the Western world. It's more balanced now though.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2015-11-30 at 01:19.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    I think Protestant work ethic may play some part in it, but it's probably mostly a biocultural thing. The Northern European is more organized, punctual and strict - whereas the Southern European is more relaxed and anarchic. I just can't see how any branches of religion could have altered these preconceived notions by any larger means.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    This is true. And that's because of the socialism in the Germanic and Nordic countries, and socialism is, when done right, pro-people. And socialism is a Christian thing:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

    So, Muslim oil nations with their über-capitalism is why you have super rich dictators, and the common people being pretty much slaves. America too btw, is heading in that direction nowadays:

    “We all too often have socialism for the rich and rugged free market capitalism for the poor.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.
    Yeah, I personally don't have any antipathy towards Christendom (I like going to church) and definitely see it as compatible and improvable with Europeans in many ways - even though historically it has also led to self-destructive behavior. Most Europeans are pretty damn Christian in their moral values even if they don't know it. I do also have lots of Christian moral myself (but none of that egalitarian feel-good Christianity).

    Socialism = sharing of the resources to everyone. Capitalism = maximum profit to a select few.
    And a nice blend of both = Evil Fascism/Nazism.

    Actually, sharing is very much a Christian thing, and I doubt hunter-gatherers shared the meat with everyone aside from their immediate close kin. It's not like the Vikings were socialists you know. And I would go so far as to say that the Nordic mentality, which is very much frugal with money (hence the economic success of the Germanic countries, and also Israel for that matter), is more tied to the harsher climate in the north than any sharing mentality is. The Scandinavians and Finns who oppose higher taxes are more representative of hunter-gatherers than the pro-high taxes Nordics. If you go to the Mediterranean countries, and especially the Arab world, it's considered shameful and rude not to give guests food. In northern Europe however, that mentality isn't nearly as common.
    Yeah I thought about this too, while reading all this and that about the supposedly altruistic Swede. I don't see any of my neighbors offering me food and baklava day in day out No but seriously, Nordic peoples seem to have a well developed sense of gathering and saving resources (money), which often seems to lead them towards not being very generous and hospitable. While being quite economical on an individual level, at the same time they seem to lack any sense for "outer" threats, hence becoming "altruistic". Whereas Southern peoples tend to be very generous within their own community (neighbors included), but constantly suspicious and hostile towards strangers. You don't see these wacko types smiling at every fucker on the street in the Middle East

    Anyway, Max Weber has written about the Protestant work ethic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pr..._of_Capitalism

    ^^ Personally, I think Christianity has made Germanic peoples more socialist and willing to share resources. Before that, before Christianity, in not just northern Europe but also in for example the Roman Empire, proprietary ownership of resources was the norm, and it still is to a large degree today in Europe and elsewhere in the Western world. It's more balanced now though.
    Yeah and that's a part of Christianity Germanic's turned into their own kins benefit (unfortunately later possible extinction when they welcomed the hordes). That's also why I'm a bit cautiously sympathetic towards an overly generous Welfare (mammon) state which seems to turn the general white male away from his nature and genetic coding for hard work. Generally I think it's a good Nordic concept though, and doubt it would ever work out in the Southern hemisphere, where there's a lot of hostility among groups, and where families just take care of each other instead.
    Last edited by Aragorn; 2015-11-30 at 07:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    This is true. And that's because of the socialism in the Germanic and Nordic countries, and socialism is, when done right, pro-people. And socialism is a Christian thing:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism
    I am not inclined to link modern development of Europe with Christianity. The morals of European have been much more "in line" with what we have here and now than with 10 commandments. This is one of the myths of Christianity civilizing Europe.

    For example in slavlands we have always had very high position of women in society (Amazons you know), this is still visible even though Christianity attempt to objectify women ("You cannot rape your wife", "Wife shoudl be always ready to be "taken" by her husband" this kind if bullshit you hear from Catholic priests):



    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    So, Muslim oil nations with their über-capitalism is why you have super rich dictators, and the common people being pretty much slaves. America too btw, is heading in that direction nowadays:

    “We all too often have socialism for the rich and rugged free market capitalism for the poor.” ― Martin Luther King Jr.

    Socialism = sharing of the resources to everyone. Capitalism = maximum profit to a select few.
    America is going the Socialistic way (etatistic in fact) since late XIX century, as long as they were the only Hegemon of the Trade Routes, they could amass wealth whatever their own system, be it pure Etatism or pure Liberalism, point is they were always supporting "free trade*" as the more the trade volume the more money in their pockets. Mercantile Civilization + Undisputed Naval Power basically. Now USA has just awakened to a new power on the rise, so they remove their asses from land wars in periphery zones (Middle East) and they are doing a Great Pacific Pivot to show the Chinkies who's da Boss of the High Seas.

    *The Freedom ends however where you start to endanger American interests.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Actually, sharing is very much a Christian thing, and I doubt hunter-gatherers shared the meat with everyone aside from their immediate close kin. It's not like the Vikings were socialists you know. And I would go so far as to say that the Nordic mentality, which is very much frugal with money (hence the economic success of the Germanic countries, and also Israel for that matter), is more tied to the harsher climate in the north than any sharing mentality is. The Scandinavians and Finns who oppose higher taxes are more representative of hunter-gatherers than the pro-high taxes Nordics. If you go to the Mediterranean countries, and especially the Arab world, it's considered shameful and rude not to give guests food. In northern Europe however, that mentality isn't nearly as common.

    Anyway, Max Weber has written about the Protestant work ethic:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pr..._of_Capitalism

    ^^ Personally, I think Christianity has made Germanic peoples more socialist and willing to share resources. Before that, before Christianity, in not just northern Europe but also in for example the Roman Empire, proprietary ownership of resources was the norm, and it still is to a large degree today in Europe and elsewhere in the Western world. It's more balanced now though.
    Not to discuss all the things you mention, basically to HG sharing the food is quite common and while I do not have online resources handy, if you go by Buss book on Evolutionary Psychology [PDF for download, very slow but works!] there is a plenty of examples how the best Hunters in the village are sharing the best food with all villagers (in exchange for sex and status obviously).

    But, but, but - I simply do not see how master planners can drive the economies of whole countries, that's why I am opposing any etatisms (Socialisms included). Lassaiz Fair!

    Hayek was one of the leading academic critics of collectivism in the 20th century. Hayek argued that all forms of collectivism (even those theoretically based on voluntary co-operation) could only be maintained by a central authority of some kind. In Hayek's view, the central role of the state should be to maintain the rule of law, with as little arbitrary intervention as possible. In his popular book, The Road to Serfdom (1944) and in subsequent academic works, Hayek argued that socialism required central economic planning and that such planning in turn leads towards totalitarianism.

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    Although our modern socialists' promise of greater freedom is genuine and sincere, in recent years observer after observer has been impressed by the unforeseen consequences of socialism, the extraordinary similarity in many respects of the conditions under "communism" and "fascism".[79]
    To receive 100€ from government, you need to pay it 120€ or maybe even 160€ (20€-60€ being the fees of government agencies). This is simply the waste of resources.

    The sum of economical freedoms of everyone gives much better drive towards well being of whole society. The smaller the government's meddling into economy, the better. In fact the Modern Aristocracy needs strong governmental meddling into economies. That's how the Scandinavian elites did not change during last century, same wealthy families occupy 100 most wealthy Swedes list since Sweden started to grow big. They got their hands on governmental contracts and they got too fat to get removed. In USA the list is contantly living and changing, so they're not so bad after all.
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2015-11-30 at 12:14.
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    Protestant ethic has nothing to do with anything, while funds from Muslims do:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Turco-Calvinism

    Turco-Calvinism refers to the alliance or rapprochement between the Protestant Reformation and the Ottoman Empire during the 16th century.[1][2]

    This rapprochement occurred at the expense of Catholic Habsburg, as the Protestant Reformation was struggling for survival in Europe and later entered into frontal conflict with the iconoclastic movement of 1567, and concomitantly the Ottoman Empire was also fighting against the Habsburg for control of southeastern Europe.[1] This rapprochement was a continuation of the Franco-Ottoman alliance established by Francis I of France from the beginning of the 16th century.[1]

    The Dutch in particular were involved in these relations.[1] Envoys were exchanged, and an Ottoman trading center was established in Antwerp in agreement with the Sultan, where four Greeks were able to officiate.[1] This rapprochement brought a stimulus to the development of Antwerp and the western seaboard.[1] By 1612, Holland had established a formal embassy in the Ottoman Empire, following France (1534) and England.[3]
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2015-11-30 at 13:41.

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