User Tag List

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 85

Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b1098 days old

  1. #11
    Wiki Editor
    Moderator
    Your favourite (((Skype))) Semitic Duwa's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-02-26
    Posts
    3,094
    Location
    In your closet
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    J1-Z18271 (YSC234+)
    mtDNA
    J1c5
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Metaethnos
    (((Skype))) + British
    Ethnicity
    (((Shasu of Yhw)))
    Politics
    Pump & Trump
    Religion
    Jehovah's Fitness
    Israel Israel Star of David Israel Israel

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    [...] Don't they?
    Not really, no.


    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Semitic Duwa For This Useful Post:

    Power77 (2017-08-12)

  3. # ADS
    Advertisement bot
    Join Date
    2013-03-24
    Location
    ForumBiodiversity.com
    Posts
    All threads
       
     

  4. #12
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2011-04-17
    Posts
    1,137
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1b-BY593
    mtDNA
    U5b2a2
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Phenotype
    Caucasid
    Politics
    Neutral
    Religion
    Neutral
    Canada Poland Germany Switzerland Italy Russia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    Not if you look at the older clades distribution (the clades found in Western Europe are the newest, not the oldest; the one which accounts for the vast majority of Iberian R1b, for example, is R1b-SS12 and its subclades, which is fairly recent):
    - - - Updated - - -
    Frequency of R1a in Western Europe (Iberia, Ireland and Italy):

    Iberia: 1.2% (when the Romans arrived in Iberia, there were Celtic and Lusitanian speaking populations in Iberia, and both were IE)

    Ireland: 0.0% and 1.0%, depending on the study (Ireland is known to have been entirely Celtic speaking before English took over)

    Italy: 5.0%, 4.0% and 0.0% (generally <5%) depending on the study, except for Northeast Italy, which is a neighbour of Slavic speaking Slovenia and Croatia (Latin is just one one of the several Italic IE languages which were spoken in Italy)

    etc

    Armenia does not have many R1b L51+ samples, but it does share R1b with Albania and ancient Greece and Eastern Europe. Armenia also has R1a samples as seen below.

    @46:46 you can see R1a/R1b frequency in Armenians.
    Sample set looks like it was taken from 1 November 2011=N377 ?
    R1a1a[M198+]=4=01.06%
    R1a1a1h[Z93+]=3=0.79%
    R1a1a1h1[L342.2+]=2=0.53%
    R1a1ai[Z280+]=1=0.265%

    @45:09
    R1a/R1b frequency Armenians
    1 September 2013=N547
    R1b1=25%
    R1a=3%

    It also has R1b-CTS7822+I could not find any in the Assyrian project.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ction=yresults
    Last edited by Silesian; 2014-11-23 at 07:36.
    R-BY593+>Y14306 - U5b2a2- Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle result 1 South_Polish 2.51
    Avatar- Gliwice Coat Of Arms

  5. #13
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 10:02
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    6,155
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Not really, no.
    Take a look at this dendrogram (form this study):




    ... and find the regions U152 peaks in. It is region IV:





    ... aka Tuskany.


    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Tuscany is named after its pre-Roman inhabitants, the Etruscans.
    Of course you can argue, that Etruria was overrun by Celts and Italics, so a marker which peaks on the territory of former Etruria cannot be considered (Rheto-)Etrurian marker enymore, and nowadays it is Italo-Celtic diagnostic marker.
    But I will remain sceptical, as I would expect an Italic marker to peak in regions V and VI on the map above:



    ... and the levels of U152 are - respectively - 2 and 5 times lower there than in Tuscany region.

    I will deal with DF27 and Basques in a separate post.

  6. #14
    Established Member
    Turboslavic Caveman Pioterus's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 09:07
    Join Date
    2010-12-21
    Posts
    2,253
    Location
    Lasy Pomorza
    Gender
    Age
    40
    Y-DNA
    I2a1b2a1a1 (A2423+)
    mtDNA
    U3a1a(1)
    Race
    Europid
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Politics
    laissez faire
    Religion
    Metalhead
    Poland Lithuania Grand Duchy

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    No need to claim anyone's culture or heritage, (...)
    However what it did manage to accomplish ? -(...)
    I think one can safely assume most of modern world and science as "R1b accomplishments", even if Nicola Tesla and Martin Luter have been I2a-DIN, Skłodowska-Curie could have been paternally R1a or I2a-DIN (or, in fact R1b or whatever mix of these, one have many male ancestors on both lines), Saabs and Norwegian/ Swedish Metal can be mostly of I1 making, yet no modesty needed nor called for on R1b. Just please let us keep our heritage as we do not try to tell the world they were aR1ans who landed on the moon*

    Knowing that they were german engineers who made America won the space race, it's even more a proof for R1b's.
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2014-11-23 at 09:25.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

  7. #15
    Established Member
    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 10:02
    Join Date
    2009-10-24
    Posts
    6,155
    Location
    Warsaw, Poland
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    I1 Z63+ S2078+ L1237-
    mtDNA
    U3a1a
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Poland

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Not really, no.
    I don't have exact numbers as I had for Italy, but on the Eupedia's map DF27 peaks...



    ... in the region of Aquitania:



    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Aquitanians (Latin: Aquitani) were a people living in what is now southern Aquitaine and southwestern Midi-Pyrenees, France, called Aquitania by the Romans, in the region between the Pyrenees, the Atlantic ocean, and the Garonne, present-day southwestern France. They were an ancient non-Indo-European, pre-Celtic population, that lived in the northern slopes of the Pyrenees. They spoke the Aquitanian language, related to Basque. Classical authors such as Julius Caesar and Strabo clearly distinguish them from the other peoples of Gaul (Gallia) and Iberia (Hispania). With the process of Romanization, in the centuries of Roman Empire, they adopted the Latin Language (Vulgar Latin) and Roman civilization. Their old language, the Aquitanian language, was the substrate of Gascon language (a romance language) spoken later by the Gascons.
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Aquitanian language was spoken on both sides of the western Pyrenees in ancient Aquitaine (approximately between the Pyrenees and the Garonne, the region later known as Gascony) and in the areas south of the Pyrenees in the valleys of the Basque Country before the Roman conquest.[1] It probably survived in Aquitania until the Early Middle Ages.

    Archaeological, toponymical, and historical evidence show that it was a Vasconic language or group of languages that represent a precursor of the Basque language.[2] The most important pieces of evidence are a series of votive and funerary texts in Latin which contain about 400 personal names and 70 names of gods.

    Aquitanian and its related descendant, Basque, are commonly thought to be a remnant of the languages spoken in Western Europe before the arrival of Indo-European speakers.
    Again you can argue that Aquitani were overraun by Celts first and Romans later, so DF27 is no more a Vasconic/Aquitanian/Basque marker, but as in the case of Etruskans and U152 I will remain sceptical.

    So althrough I respect feelings of Western Europeans who want to be descendants of the fearless "Aryans" from the East, but in the case of Etruscan U152 and Aquitanian DF27 I don't really see any place for negotiations.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2014-11-23 at 12:12.

  8. #16
    Established Member
    The Forbidden safinator's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2011-02-15
    Posts
    2,107
    Location
    Albania
    Gender
    Race
    Europoid
    Phenotype
    Mediterranid
    Metaethnos
    Illyrian
    Ethnicity
    Albanian
    Phenotype
    Atlanto-Gracile-Pontid
    Religion
    Science
    Albania

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post


    Italy: 5.0%, 4.0% and 0.0% (generally <5%) depending on the study, except for Northeast Italy, which is a neighbour of Slavic speaking Slovenia and Croatia (Latin is just one one of the several Italic IE languages which were spoken in Italy)
    Actually in Italy the highest percent of R1a is found in Sicily.




    Regions:
    NW (I): Piamonte, Liguria, Lombardia
    NE (II): Veneto, Friuli-VJ,
    BOL (III): Bologna (or Emilia-Romagna if you dare to generalize from a single sampling point)
    TUS (IV): Tuscany
    C (Central, V): Lazio, Umbria, Marche,
    S (South, VI): Campania, Basilicata, Apulia, Abruzzi, Molise
    SIC (VII): Sicily
    SAR (VIII): Sardinia

  9. #17
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2011-04-17
    Posts
    1,137
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1b-BY593
    mtDNA
    U5b2a2
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Phenotype
    Caucasid
    Politics
    Neutral
    Religion
    Neutral
    Canada Poland Germany Switzerland Italy Russia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    I think one can safely assumed for on R1b....
    Okay but the context of the OP is to try and establish gene flow. We have a little bit of data that can help us. First we know there are not many R1b ancient samples in Europe. Second we know there are plenty of ancient samples in Europe with I2 which is also related to I1. So with some modest data we can compare. Does that seem fair proposition?

    For example we can use your result's and Wojewoda`s result's if you like and compare to some R1b's . Or we can use a generic autosomal calculator to compare.

    We can even give our clades simple names. Will call your clade Polish/Germanic branch I2 and Wojewoda Nordic branch I1. My branch of R1b will call Assyrian and Western R1b will call African.

    I happen to like Eurogenes K15. However for the sake of neutrality[as in overwhelmingly Polish input] we can use Dodecad K12b.

    Now we have different branches of I1+I2 [ancient branches found within Europe]and different branches of R1b L51+ /L51-[relative to I1+I2 a new arrival to Europe]within Europe to compare autosomal for any clues as to ancestry.

    Polish_D Dodecad 18N
    Gedrosia-0.5%
    Siberian-0%
    North West African-0%
    South East Asian-0%
    Atlantic Med-20.9%
    North European-63.3%
    South Asian-0.9%
    East African-0%
    South West Asian-2.3%
    East Asian-0%
    Caucasus-12.1%
    Sub_Saharan-0%
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...DcTZEYlE#gid=0



    Here is website; to estimate your result's and Wojewoda's who are typical Poles I1+I2
    http://v2.gedmatch.com/login1.php

    Here are my result's labelled as Assyrian1 [since Assyrians have high frequency of Eastern R1b Z2103] Eastern R1b branch-Poland region.

    Assyrian1 R1b from Southern Poland region.
    Population:
    Gedrosia 5.50%
    Siberian 1.12%
    Northwest_African -
    Southeast_Asian -
    Atlantic_Med 26.73%
    North_European 54.58%
    South_Asian 0.73%
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian 0.10%
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus 11.24%
    Sub_Saharan -

    Assyrian2 R1b from Russia/Finland region.
    Population:
    Gedrosia 3.61%
    Siberian 6.66%
    Northwest_African -
    Southeast_Asian -
    Atlantic_Med 25.36%
    North_European 62.20%
    South_Asian 1.04%
    East_African -
    Southwest_Asian 0.90%
    East_Asian -
    Caucasus 0.20%
    Sub_Saharan -
    Last edited by Silesian; 2014-11-23 at 15:56.
    R-BY593+>Y14306 - U5b2a2- Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle result 1 South_Polish 2.51
    Avatar- Gliwice Coat Of Arms

  10. #18
    Established Member
    Turboslavic Caveman Pioterus's Avatar
    Last Online
    Today @ 09:07
    Join Date
    2010-12-21
    Posts
    2,253
    Location
    Lasy Pomorza
    Gender
    Age
    40
    Y-DNA
    I2a1b2a1a1 (A2423+)
    mtDNA
    U3a1a(1)
    Race
    Europid
    Metaethnos
    Slavic
    Ethnicity
    Polish
    Politics
    laissez faire
    Religion
    Metalhead
    Poland Lithuania Grand Duchy

    Default

    ^ I agree uniparentals are meaningless in individual cases. They mark general population movements, yet It's obvious we're both much closer genetically than myself and any Euro HG of I2a1b haplo. Heck, even than myself and I2a1b Balkan slavs.

    More importantly I would not dare claiming any advancements done by my 'ancestors', the point is to discuss and possibly disassemble this old mythopoeia of Celts coming out of eastern steppes, this deeply interwoven fabric of "march of the blondes" as can be found in Western Mindset.
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2014-11-23 at 17:33.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

  11. #19
    Wiki Editor
    Moderator
    Your favourite (((Skype))) Semitic Duwa's Avatar
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2010-02-26
    Posts
    3,094
    Location
    In your closet
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    J1-Z18271 (YSC234+)
    mtDNA
    J1c5
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Metaethnos
    (((Skype))) + British
    Ethnicity
    (((Shasu of Yhw)))
    Politics
    Pump & Trump
    Religion
    Jehovah's Fitness
    Israel Israel Star of David Israel Israel

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    I don't have exact numbers as I had for Italy, but on the Eupedia's map DF27 peaks...



    ... in the region of Aquitania:







    Again you can argue that Aquitani were overraun by Celts first and Romans later, so DF27 is no more a Vasconic/Aquitanian/Basque marker, but as in the case of Etruskans and U152 I will remain sceptical.

    So althrough I respect feelings of Western Europeans who want to be descendants of the fearless "Aryans" from the East, but in the case of Etruscan U152 and Aquitanian DF27 I don't really see any place for negotiations.
    That doesn't work for several reasons, first of all your model doesn't fit with these lineages' phylogeny, second you're assuming that these lineages correlate neatly with non-IE language groups because of convenience based on sheer frequencies which requires us to disregard these language groups' respective history, emergence and spread in the first place.

    For instance, there's an interesting R-U152 founder effect in Northern Bashkirs (Myres et al. 2010):



    So, are you going to suggest some sort of Rhæto-Etruscan/Tyrsenian blitzkrieg in Bashkortostan?
    I hope not, with all due respect.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2014-11-23 at 18:22.


    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Semitic Duwa For This Useful Post:

    Power77 (2017-08-13), Ubirajara (2014-11-23)

  13. #20
    Established Member
    Molecular Biologist
    Last Online
    @
    Join Date
    2011-04-17
    Posts
    1,137
    Gender
    Y-DNA
    R1b-BY593
    mtDNA
    U5b2a2
    Race
    Caucasoid
    Phenotype
    Caucasid
    Politics
    Neutral
    Religion
    Neutral
    Canada Poland Germany Switzerland Italy Russia

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    ^ I agree uniparentals are meaningless in individual cases. They mark general population movements, yet It's obvious we're both much closer genetically than myself and any Euro HG of I2a1b haplo. Heck, even than myself and I2a1b Balkan slavs......
    Here are some African R1b from Western Europe.
    Dodecad K12b admixtures
    Admixture-Iron Age Celt 1-Anglo-Saxon 1-Modern Britons

    North European-39.04%-49.89%-44.5%
    Atlantic-Med-32.43%-30.08%-43%
    Caucasus-9.12%-9.78%-1.8%
    Gedrosia-5.96%-0.08%-10.4%
    Southwest Asian-1.63%-0%-0.2%
    South Asian-2.90%-0.07%-0.1%
    Southeast Asian-0%-0%-0%
    East Asian-0%- 3.63%-0%
    Siberian-0.02%-1.16%-0%
    Northwest African-2.63%-1.31%-0%
    East African-2.73%-0.79%-0%
    Sub_Saharan-3.54%-3.19%-0%

    How did they get so high % Caucasus'?

    Polish_D Dodecad 18N
    Gedrosia-0.5%
    Siberian-0%
    North West African-0%
    South East Asian-0%
    Atlantic Med-20.9%
    North European-63.3%
    South Asian-0.9%
    East African-0%
    South West Asian-2.3%
    East Asian-0%
    Caucasus-12.1%
    Sub_Saharan-0%
    Last edited by Silesian; 2014-11-23 at 20:32.
    R-BY593+>Y14306 - U5b2a2- Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle result 1 South_Polish 2.51
    Avatar- Gliwice Coat Of Arms

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 2014-04-02, 20:40
  2. R1b among Bell Beakers
    By Azvarohi in forum y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 199
    Last Post: 2013-01-21, 12:31
  3. Bell Beaker People
    By Jonny in forum History
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 2012-09-20, 03:12
  4. Classify Jamie Bell
    By Historybuff in forum Guess Ethnicity
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 2012-01-04, 01:07
  5. Angellica Bell
    By windie in forum Classification Requests
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 2010-04-08, 20:10

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
<