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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b1098 days old

  1. #21
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    Evolutionary Biologist Wojewoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    That doesn't work for several reasons, first of all your model doesn't fit with these lineages' phylogeny, (...)
    I don't have a model, I just have noticed two obvious facts: DF27 peaks where we would expect to find a Vasconic marker, and U152 where we would look for an Etruskan marker.

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    (...) second you're assuming that these lineages correlate neatly with non-IE language groups because of convenience based on sheer frequencies which requires us to disregard these language groups' respective history, emergence and spread in the first place.
    We know next to nothing on (pre-)history of Basques and Etruscans (or IEs for that matter), so I don't so how this can be a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    For instance, there's an interesting R-U152 founder effect in Northern Bashkirs (Myres et al. 2010):



    So, are you going to suggest some sort of Rhæto-Etruscan/Tyrsenian blitzkrieg in Bashkortostan? I hope not, with all due respect.
    I am saying that U152 is not an Italic marker because it peaks in former Etruria and is much lower in the lands where Italics lived, and you say "you are wrong! Turkic Bashkirs also have it". I don't see much logic here.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    I don't have a model, I just have noticed two obvious facts: DF27 peaks where we would expect to find a Vasconic marker, and U152 where we would look for an Etruskan marker.
    And R1a-Z93 reaches some of its highest frequencies in Turkic-speaking groups, should I therefore automatically conclude that Z93 is a Turkic marker and that it has nothing to do whatsoever with Indo-Iranian speakers?
    As a matter of fact, R1b-U152 also peaks in Turkic speakers (Northern Bashkirs, over ~70% of whom were U152 in Myres et al. 2010), as I mentionned earlier, not in Tuscany.

    We know next to nothing on (pre-)history of Basques and Etruscans (or IEs for that matter), so I don't so how this can be a problem.
    What we do know is that Basque's ancestor probably wasn't there prior to the Neolithic era and that Tyrsenian as a whole came from the Aegean and the Eastern Mediterranean, in other words Etruscan (as well as Rhaetian) was a newcomer in the Italian peninsula's linguistic landscape.

    I am saying that U152 is not an Italic marker because it peaks in former Etruria and is much lower in the lands where Italics lived, and you say "you are wrong! Turkic Bashkirs also have it". I don't see much logic here.
    Putting aside what I just wrote (namely, that Etruscan is an intruding language), Herodotus himself reports that the Etruscans came from Anatolia and that they overlaid an indigenous Italic-speaking population [the Ombrici/Umbrians] (Histories I.94)... So how are you going to reconcile that theory with your claim that U152 isn't an Italic marker precisely because it attains high frequencies in Etruria already?

    Yet again, you're merely highlighting what I initially said: You're drawing conclusions from frequencies alone, by doing so you conveniently forget important details.

    Finally, the logic at hand is simple: If, according to you, R-U152 is an Etruscan/Tyrsenian marker, then how on earth did it end up producing a founder effect in North Bashkortostan?
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2014-11-24 at 00:42.


    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Here are some African R1b from Western Europe.
    Dodecad K12b admixtures
    Admixture-Iron Age Celt 1-Anglo-Saxon 1-Modern Britons

    North European-39.04%-49.89%-44.5%
    Atlantic-Med-32.43%-30.08%-43%
    Caucasus-9.12%-9.78%-1.8%
    Gedrosia-5.96%-0.08%-10.4%
    Southwest Asian-1.63%-0%-0.2%
    South Asian-2.90%-0.07%-0.1%
    Southeast Asian-0%-0%-0%
    East Asian-0%- 3.63%-0%
    Siberian-0.02%-1.16%-0%
    Northwest African-2.63%-1.31%-0%
    East African-2.73%-0.79%-0%
    Sub_Saharan-3.54%-3.19%-0%

    How did they get so high % Caucasus'?

    Polish_D Dodecad 18N
    Gedrosia-0.5%
    Siberian-0%
    North West African-0%
    South East Asian-0%
    Atlantic Med-20.9%
    North European-63.3%
    South Asian-0.9%
    East African-0%
    South West Asian-2.3%
    East Asian-0%
    Caucasus-12.1%
    Sub_Saharan-0%
    Wild guess...

    By examining admixture levels in these groups, they found that an early European farmer split off from the rest of the European farmers early on and mixed with eastern European hunter-gatherers to form the Yamnaya population, which lived on the Steppes, Lazaridis said. Meanwhile, a middle Neolithic population mixed with Yamnaya to form the late Neolithic Corded Ware population of central Europe.
    ASHG Panelists Discuss New Insights into European Population Structure

    Yamnaya samples showed affinity to the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) proxy Mal'ta boy, but were also partly of Near Eastern origin, and indeed could be modeled as a 50/50 mixture between present-day Armenians and ancient Karelian hunter-gatherers.
    PIE homeland update: paleogenomics supports the steppe hypothesis

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    Gimbutas wasn't as bad as many modern 'scholars' try and make her out to be. Some of the exact details/specifics weren't always right w/ what she said but she usually got the general idea right. Plus she wrote before the use of C-14 dating.

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    ^ Her quotes on the Bell Beakers were taken from the book "The Kurgan culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe". A very good one. It has a collection of her articles, following a chronological order. Her theory provides the basic model still accepted for the IE homeland and its expansion. I ordered it via Amazon. Besides that, I have "In Search of the Indo Europeans", by Mallory, "The Horse, the Wheel and Language", by David W Anthony and "How to Kill a Dragon", by Calvert Watkins. Reading these books will provide anyone with a good introduction on IE topics. I guess Indo Europeans are related to the expansions of both R1b and R1a in Europe and in South Asia. I expect Samara and Yamnaya studies to confirm that, if not others. If not, it'll be interesting to know what happened, since Indo Europeans played such an important role in Europe, in the Near East and in South Asia.
    Last edited by Ubirajara; 2014-11-24 at 04:18.
    Sche innam me pepicke keseagu

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    ^ I actually own all those books except the Watkins one but I briefly skimmed through it. Only glaringly obvious thing she got wrong was GAC development. Its from a community derived in main from the TRB people. Other than that she was pretty sound.

    Definitely looking forward to the results for Yamna and the CWC horizons. Hopefully some meaningful autosomal results will be made known and the kits converted over for gedmatch ADMIXTURE relatively soon thereafter.
    Last edited by geomattica; 2014-11-24 at 04:06.

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    What evidence is there that Bell Beakers rode horses?

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    So the Yamna are half Neolithic? Wow that's a lot more South Europid influenced than I figured..I figured more like 80/20 in favor of Paleolithic/Neolithic.

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    From Wikipedia:

    On the other hand, measurable changes in size and increases in variability associated with domestication occurred later, about 2500–2000 BCE, as seen in horse remains found at the site of Csepel-Haros in Hungary, a settlement of the Bell Beaker culture.
    Source: Benecke, Norbert; Von den Dreisch, Angela (2003). "Horse exploitation in the Kazakh steppes during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age". In Levine, Marsha; Renfrew, Colin; Boyle, Katie. Prehistoric Steppe Adaptation and the Horse. Cambridge: McDonald Institute.

    From the text itself:

    The only exception in Figure 6.7 are the Bell-Beaker horses from Csepel-Háros (Hungary) which exhibit a much larger standard deviation. They are widely accepted as represent- ing domestic horses (Bökönyi 1978; Uerpmann 1990).
    Last edited by geomattica; 2014-11-24 at 05:21.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    So the Yamna are half Neolithic? Wow that's a lot more South Europid influenced than I figured..I figured more like 80/20 in favor of Paleolithic/Neolithic.
    Not half, because Armenians are mixed themselves, with substantial ANE admixture (~15%).

    So this isn't a surprsing result, beause present-day Ukrainians were modeled as ~47% EEF, and they're not exactly South Europids, are they?

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