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Thread: Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b1039 days old

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    Default Bell Beakers, Gimbutas and R1b

    What is your opinion on Gimbutas' take?

    Since the oldest R1b found in Europe so far has been found at a Bell Beaker site, in Kromsdorf, East Germany, I guess it would be interesting to see what Gimbutas had to say about the Bell Beakers:

    The Bell Beaker complex, an offshoot of the Vucedol bloc (more precisely of the Zok-Mako group in Hungary) continued Kurgan charateristics. The Bell Beaker of the second half of the 3rd millenium BC were vagabondic horse riders and archers in much the same way as their uncles and cousins, the Corded people of northern Europe and Catacomb-grave people of the North Pontic region. Their spread over central and western Europe to the British Isles and Spain as well as the Mediterranean islands terminates the period of expansion and destruction.
    In western Hungary and nothwestern Yugoslavia, the Vucedol complex was followed by the Samogyvar-Vinkovci complex, the predecessor of the Bell Beaker people. Furthermore, the exodus of the horse-riding Bell Beaker people in the middle of the 3rd millenium, or soon thereafter, from the territories of the Vucedol complex, may not be unconnected with the constant threat from the east. They carried to the west Kurgan traditions in armament, social structure, and religion. The fact of paramount importance of Bell Beaker mobility is the presence of the horse. Seven Bell Beaker sites at Budapest in Hungary have shown that the horse was the foremost species of the domestic fauna.
    The spread of the already Indo-Europeanized central European population (the Corded Ware culture) to the northwest and northeast, as well as of the Bell Beaker people to the west, is hardly explainable without some insight into the role played by this element from the east.
    The Proto-Indo Europeans were able to expand to the west, to the east, and to the south primarily because of the horse. Renfrew has also failed to stress the enormous importance of the horse and horseback riding in his treatment of the Bell Beaker phenomenon.
    From "The Kurgan culture and the Indo-Europeanization of Europe"
    Last edited by Ubirajara; 2014-11-19 at 12:16.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    What is your opinion on Gimbutas' take?
    Sounds totaly outdated in the light of modern consensus for the spread of Bell Beakers out of Western Portugal:




    I will have to look for any information on Bell Beakers and horses, as I can't recall ever reading about horse riding in the BB context.


    By the way my favourite source of information on BBs is the Bell Beaker Blogger.

    He suggests Bell Beaker spread through North Africa/Sahara:



    ... and going to Portugal from Africa makes much more sense than from Ukraine.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2014-11-20 at 06:10.

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    Yeah, BBBlogger makes actually a lot of sense. Good to see a BB pride not claiming other cultures' heritage by the way
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
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    This is what David W Anthony, leading IE expert, said on the contemporary classic "The Horse, the Wheel and Language":

    Bell Beaker sites of Cespel around Budapest, west of the Yamnaya settlement region, are dated about 2800-2600 BCE. They could have been a bridge between Yamnaya on their east and Austria/Southern Germany to their west, through which Yamnaya dialects spread from Hungary into Austria and Bavaria, where they later developed into Proto-Celtic.
    Beel Beaker decorated cup styles, domestic pot types, and grave and dagger types from the middle Danube were adopted about 2600 BCE in Moravia and Southern Germany. This material network could have been the bridge through which pre-Celtic dialects spread into Germany.
    Interestingly both Italic and Celtic speaking populations are mainly R1b carriers, with basically no R1a.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    Interestingly both Italic and Celtic speaking populations are mainly R1b carriers, with basically no R1a.
    That's not correct. Thousands of Western Europeans carry R1a, and often lineages that are specific to Western Europe like R1a-CTS4385.

    Old European R1a is also more common in Western Europe than anywhere else, probably because it got there during the early phase of the R1a expansions.

    Map

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    This is what David W Anthony, leading IE expert, said on the contemporary classic "The Horse, the Wheel and Language":





    Interestingly both Italic and Celtic speaking populations are mainly R1b carriers, with basically no R1a.
    The major problem in my opinon is that two major Western European R1b clades (U-152/S28 and DF27) don't really look Italo-Celtic but rather (Rheto-)Etrusko-(Ibero-)Vasconic instead:













    Don't they?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2014-11-22 at 12:01.

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    Not if you look at the older clades distribution (the clades found in Western Europe are the newest, not the oldest; the one which accounts for the vast majority of Iberian R1b, for example, is R1b-SS12 and its subclades, which is fairly recent):



    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Don't they?
    - - - Updated - - -

    This is what I had said:

    Interestingly both Italic and Celtic speaking populations are mainly R1b carriers, with basically no R1a.
    Frequency of R1a in Western Europe (Iberia, Ireland and Italy):

    Iberia: 1.2% (when the Romans arrived in Iberia, there were Celtic and Lusitanian speaking populations in Iberia, and both were IE)

    Ireland: 0.0% and 1.0%, depending on the study (Ireland is known to have been entirely Celtic speaking before English took over)

    Italy: 5.0%, 4.0% and 0.0% (generally <5%) depending on the study, except for Northeast Italy, which is a neighbour of Slavic speaking Slovenia and Croatia (Latin is just one one of the several Italic IE languages which were spoken in Italy)

    etc

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._by_population



    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    That's not correct. Thousands of Western Europeans carry R1a, and often lineages that are specific to Western Europe like R1a-CTS4385.

    Old European R1a is also more common in Western Europe than anywhere else, probably because it got there during the early phase of the R1a expansions.

    Map
    Last edited by Ubirajara; 2014-11-22 at 18:55.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    the one which accounts for the vast majority of Iberian R1b, for example, is R1b-SS12 and its subclades, which is fairly recent):
    I meant R1b-S116.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    Yeah, BBBlogger makes actually a lot of sense. Good to see a BB pride not claiming other cultures' heritage by the way
    No need to claim anyone's culture or heritage, especially those accomplishments belonging to I1 and I2 and R1a clades. R1b can concede it did not invent the wheel. It did not specialize in metal weapons. It did not invent farming. It did not have it's own Indo-European language. It did not domesticate the horse. It was not the first to arrive in Europe;[ perhaps the last as shown in the ancient R1a clades] .



    R1b can even concede it is from Africa; or belonged to a group farmers from somewhere in South West Asia, or South Asia.
    However what it did manage to accomplish ? -Populate a very large portion of Europe, without any of the above advantages, invented by all the other clades.


    That's quite a complex accomplishment for a late migrant, wouldn't you say?
    Last edited by Silesian; 2014-11-23 at 00:54.
    R1b-Z2103>BY593+U5b2a2+Eurogenes EUtest-1 South_Polish @ 2.890596--Surname ‘będący na końcu’ Sstp circa-1408, Most are registered in the city of Poznań, exactly 782.,-Kraków (385), Wodzisław Śląski (352),-]R1b-Z2103-Pit Grave/ Ochre Grave culture/Poltavka culture/Bell Beaker culture/Vučedol culture/Sarmatian culture. Modern day Eastern Europe, Albanian,Ossetian,Armenian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    Frequency of R1a in Western Europe (Iberia, Ireland and Italy):

    Iberia: 1.2% (when the Romans arrived in Iberia, there were Celtic and Lusitanian speaking populations in Iberia, and both were IE)

    Ireland: 0.0% and 1.0%, depending on the study (Ireland is known to have been entirely Celtic speaking before English took over)

    Italy: 5.0%, 4.0% and 0.0% (generally <5%) depending on the study, except for Northeast Italy, which is a neighbour of Slavic speaking Slovenia and Croatia (Latin is just one one of the several Italic IE languages which were spoken in Italy)
    Modern frequencies can be deceptive. It's more useful to rely on the phylogeography of rare subclades in this case until we see some ancient DNA, because we don't know what the situation was like in Western Europe during the Copper and Bronze Ages.

    One of the things we do know, however, is that there was a population crash in Western Europe during the Bronze to Iron Age transition, probably caused by the collapse of Bronze Age trade networks.

    In all likelihood it's after this time that the modern Western European paternal gene pool emerged, so I suspect you're looking back too far.
    Last edited by Polako; 2014-11-23 at 02:23.

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