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Thread: Was Jesus a nationalist? Is Christianity compatible with nationalism?1652 days old

  1. #61
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    Was Jesus a nationalist? Only in retrospect, that is to say, when analyzed through modern lenses.

    You can twist the Messiah in whichever way you want to suit modern narratives. From the point of view of anti-clericalists and Christian-sceptics seventeen/eighteen centuries after his birth, he was an unruly Oriental subject who pulled off an impressive feat in toppling the Roman Empire through 'subversive' means. The last remains of Roman spirit were thus "buried in the cloisters" (E. Gibbon). The younger, more zealous portions of that group (neopagan Odinists in particular) take it one step further and portray Jesus as the leader of a monstrous Jewish virus which swept across their cozy green pastures, overtaking that odd mediterranean empire bordering their lands and against whom they had led cushy turf wars, plowing them into a world of darkness ever since: the worst imperialism of all, one which effectively wrecked their future.
    For the conciliatory socialists, he was a revolutionary egalitarian activist who "chased the merchants out of the temple" and so on and so forth, thus there is little shame in spreading the word of God, Venezuela's case springs to mind especially.

    Does this say much about Jesus himself? Not quite. He certainly understood concepts of kinship and solidarity. But his message was received in a different world, at a different period in time and space. Should that prompt us to describe him as a 'nationalist' or a 'communist'? I'm not quite sure that those ideas were popular at the time, but feel free to correct me on that.

    Jesus Christ was a Christian. As for how compatible the religion is with nationalism, go ask the current Pope. Something tells me he has a tendency to look the other way when such a contention arises. The Micks, Spaniards, and the Polaks successfully managed to blend it with their respective national identities on the other hand, but it may be argued that this was more the deed of tradition than nationalism proper.

    As for the Jewish/non-Jewish Jesus thing. Do you even realize that those breakups between the old Jews and the wayward Christians had more to do with their inner sectarian squabbling than anything else? The existence of a New Covenant betrays a deep knowledge between the two, after all, they needed to distance themselves. Both groups accused each other of being the sons of Esau and Edomites (which basically meant that they were a failed, worthless branch of Abraham's progeny) whilst proclaiming themselves to be the true descendants of Jacob (thereby belonging the Tribes of Israel). That dichotomy was perpetuated by both Jews and Europe's Roman Catholic population throughout the Middle Ages, which has led to the weird paradox of Jews accusing the Sons of Japhet, who don't even ethnically qualify in this Biblical quarrel, of being Edomites (and thus descendants of Shem).

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  4. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Westerners would have been better off following Zarathustra, honestly. Stephen E. Flowers actually synthesizes Zoroastrianism with Germanic Neopaganism beautifully, in my view. Much better for Westerners to abandon Cuckstianity and go for that.
    In what way would the West have been better off as Zoroastrians? It's not like Zoroastrianism was a proselytizing religion anyway. My understanding of it is that it was an ethnic Iranian religion, and the only non-Persians who converted to Zoroastrianism (or flirted with it) was a handful Assyrians, like Sennacherib II, who later converted to Christianity anyway.

    This is obviously the case because in the old days, religions were a lot more 'proprietary', and basically the unique property of the people who followed this and that religion. As such, Greeks did not convert to Zoroastrianism and Persians did not convert to Greek polytheism to any significant degree. I'm sure there were a few open-minded converts here and there, especially in the military, as was the case with for example Mithraism, but they never really became the mainstream.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Actually, take that back, I think the West would have been better off as Mithraists, which was growing during the time of Rome. It was a syncretism of Hellenistic and Persian elements, and it was quite an interesting secret religion to say the least. Christianity, however, syncretism of Jewish and Hellenistic elements.
    How would the West be better off today with Mithraism? Please elaborate.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    I appreciate your response. You are very well-versed in history. I agree with you that Christians who bad mouth Jews are kind of retarded. I never really quite understood it, to be honest, considering Jesus, himself, was undeniably a Jew. Those who deny his Jewishness are much like ignorant climate change deniers.
    That Jesus was ethnically Jewish, is of course, undeniable. Throughout my years on the internetz, I've seen everything from Swedish neo-Nazis to ethnic Assyrian pseudo-Aramaeans deny that Jesus was Jewish (the deluded Assyrians with their wishful thinking that we're Aramaeans, interestingly, tried to argue that Jesus was an ethnic Aramaean, which of course would make Assyrians the 'Aramaean Master Race', because you know, language is what determines ancestry).

    I think most people who seriously try to argue that Jesus wasn't a Jew, are either totally deluded/anti-intellectual, or they simply have an agenda (and 'Positive Christianity' is the best historical example of that). I'm not even sure there were any non-Jews in Palestine at the time (save for a few Roman soldiers and such).

    The reason why some Christians deny that Jesus was a Jew, is because Jesus was according to Christianity, the son of God and God in the flesh (as in incarnate). Jesus was therefore 100% good, no evil in him. Much like Superman, Jesus never told any lies:

    Lois, I never lie.avi:


    The Jews on the other hand, are depicted in the New Testament as liars, children of the devil and so on (and also the classical Christ-killers which more or less became a mainstream theme in old school Christianity). So because of this, some Christians refuse to acknowledge the Jewish ancestry of Jesus, because that would be inconsistent with their own tribalist mindset, that a group of people is either 100% good or 100% bad (very black and white thinking here).

    Anyway, to keep it short: the belief that Jesus was not Jewish, is more often than not, motivated by hostility to Jews. Regardless of how rational or irrational hostility to Jews is, it has no bearing on the ancestry of a historical figure. That's like saying "Josephus was not Jewish because I don't like Jews but I admire the work of Josephus", or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Granted, I don't see much intrigue in Judeo-Christian heritage. Most of its interesting elements come from Hellenism or Zoroastrian influences.
    Which are these interesting elements? I'm particularly interested in knowing more about the Hellenistic elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Roman Mithraism was very important in shaping Western ethos, inbred. I've studied it in-depth.
    Please elaborate on this too. Mithraism died out quickly and never really became a part of the European character the way Christianity did. I don't see how Mithraism contributed to the West in a significant way. If anything Islam contributed more to the Western character, through its constant Jihad warfare/attacks, which influenced Europeans to do the same by aggressively converting the remaining Europeans who were still pagans, and then conquer the New World and convert the natives through violence. Previously, pre-Islam, Christianity was spread peacefully despite aggression and violence from Romans and Jews, who were both very anti-Christian. Zoroastrian Persians also used to persecute Christians (mainly Assyrians) because they suspected Christians to be allies of Rome.

    Anyway, the notion that Jesus was a nationalist makes as much sense as saying Chomsky is a nationalist. Chomsky has very much the same mentality as Jesus had.
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  5. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    In what way would the West have been better off as Zoroastrians?
    I recommend checking up Stephen E. Flowers and his approach of syncretizing Germanic neopaganism and Zoroastrianism.

    What distinguishes it from Germanic paganism is, like Zoroastrianism, is it placed a kind of emphasis on progress towards truth and order (asha) rather than purely defining good and bad in terms of what serves one's kin.

    Zoroastrianism's influence was vast. Look at this video by Joseph Campbell for example:



    I recommend reading Anders Hultgård's chapter "Zoroastrian Influences on Judaism, Christianity and Islam" in Mihael Sausberg's Zarathustra and Zoroastrianism (pp. 101-112). It's the most up-to-date scholarly research.

    It's like Christianity but without the cucking.

    This is obviously the case because in the old days, religions were a lot more 'proprietary', and basically the unique property of the people who followed this and that religion. As such, Greeks did not convert to Zoroastrianism and Persians did not convert to Greek polytheism to any significant degree.
    Religions and philosophies did influence each other in interesting ways. For example, some schools of thought in the Sassanian Zoroastrian tradition were influenced by Hellenism.

    I'm sure there were a few open-minded converts here and there, especially in the military, as was the case with for example Mithraism, but they never really became the mainstream.
    It was in rivalry with Christianity for predominance. Caracalla and Roman emperors, for example, encouraged its growth and preferred it over Christianity.

    How would the West be better off today with Mithraism? Please elaborate.
    It's because it still has the metaphysical notion of progress towards a "truth/light", but it is based more on cycles of good and evil struggling unlike Zoroastrianism.

    Which are these interesting elements? I'm particularly interested in knowing more about the Hellenistic elements.
    Well, Plotinus was a huge source of influence on Christian theology. Stuff like hypostatic union was most likely influenced by Greek philosophy, and the Biblical canon was originally written in Koine Greek, correct?

    Please elaborate on this too. Mithraism died out quickly and never really became a part of the European character the way Christianity did.
    Well, the Last Supper is the biggest one, and the way the soul's descent is described in some Christian texts does uncannily resemble Mithraic imagery.

    Previously, pre-Islam, Christianity was spread peacefully despite aggression and violence from Romans and Jews, who were both very anti-Christian.
    Obviously, you have a strong bias: I had a list of many Scandinavian pagan warriors who died resisting Christianization and don't forget to Charlemagne. Many European pagan sites were destroyed and their PIE religions were largely displaced or weakly assimilated.

    Anyway, the notion that Jesus was a nationalist makes as much sense as saying Chomsky is a nationalist. Chomsky has very much the same mentality as Jesus had.
    Zarathustra, Mani, and Mazdak the Younger were better.
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2017-03-12 at 03:52.

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    Jesus was a jew and christianity is nothing more than reformed judaism.

    It's embarrassing that a majority of ethnocentric Europeans that just so happen to be christian don't understand this. Europe was better off pagan, christianity is a jewish religious disease.

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    Christianity has become so cuckified that it is an enemy to itself. I just heard the term "Chrislam" as a description of churches islamophilia.
    The Future was better before

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