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Thread: New Study confirms Ancient Egyptians to be closer to Yoruba?1528 days old

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=ep2;1197258]In genetic studies Yoruba are often used as a proxy for Niger-Kordofanian speakers in general. It's quite possible, for example, that Wolof people, who are also Niger-Kordofanian speakers, would be closer to the OOA migrants than the Yoruba if they would have been included in this whole genome study. I don't think any people can have a precise tradition which goes so far back in time. I think the most recent common ancestors between Ancient Egyptians and West Africans are much more remote than during the Ancient Egyptian state time. Probably before 10 000 years ago (although well after the OOA migrations)."


    You need to look at global PC analyses. All NK speakers lie far away from Egyptians, much further than Western Eurasians do.

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    I don't think you have really read or understood the study in the OP...
    Last edited by ep2; 2015-06-21 at 11:21.

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    As I said above--- I suggest you investigate the numerous PC plots that are out there; and also charts of global FST distances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep2 View Post
    You're mistaken, it's the non-African ancestry in modern Egyptians which is dated to around 750 years ago.
    Dating systems like ALDER are not necessarily reliable. As much as I had against it; I've mentioned more than once that one of the things Hodgson et al. did well was display that such dating methods aren't entirely reliable and they're not. According to Pagani et al. Horner West Eurasian admixture came around ~2-3 thousand years ago but this is impossible as Somalis and Ethio-Semites like Tigrinyas who haven't shared a gene pool since at least ~1000 BCE carry shared ancestry like "Ethio-Somali". [-]

    In fact, South Cushites who departed the Horn according to many archaeologists as early as ~1000 BCE [-] and made it to Southern Africa as early as 200 BCE [-]; passed on West Eurasian admixture to the Southern African populations they encountered [-]. I've emailed Joseph K. Pickrell himself and gotten him to confirm that their West Eurasian ancestry was gained via "Eastern African Pastoralists who themselves were West Eurasian admixed" (like Somalis...).

    His reply to my email when I asked him if he thought the West Eurasian ancestry in his Southern African populations was owed to admixed Cushitic pastoralists (I showed him Blench's 2007 paper):

    Spoiler: 


    Stop harking back to these dating systems like they're the word of God, they're not.
    Last edited by Awale; 2015-06-21 at 13:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post
    In fact, South Cushites who departed the Horn according to many archaeologists as early as ~1000 BCE [-] and made it to Southern Africa as early as 200 BCE [-]; passed on West Eurasian admixture to the Southern African populations they encountered [-]. I've emailed Joseph K. Pickrell himself and gotten him to confirm that their West Eurasian ancestry was gained via "Eastern African Pastoralists who themselves were West Eurasian admixed" (like Somalis...).
    According to this whole genome study (original post), the non-African admixture in Ethiopians and Somali is dated to around 2500-3000 years ago. More than enough time to travel to southern Africa in 200 BCE.


    Consistent with previous reports,13 the Amhara
    and Oromo were shown to have around 50% of
    their genome derived from non-Africans, the introgressed
    proportion in the Somali and Wolayta amounted to
    40%–30%, and the Gumuz showed negligible amounts
    of non-African admixture. The date of the midpoint of
    these admixture events was 2,500–3,000 years ago - Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians
    For info, beside Pickrell and a few other studies, it is also the same dating in the genetic study called The African Genome Variation Project shapes medical genetics in Africa (2014):

    Specifically, ancient Eurasian admixture
    was observed in central West African populations (Yoruba; 7,500–
    10,500 years ago), old admixture among Ethiopian populations (2,400–
    3,200 years ago)
    consistent with previous reports10,12, and more recent
    complex admixture in some East African populations (150–1,500 years
    ago)
    The dating is very important because if we consider modern Egyptians as an admixture between Ancient Egyptians and various Eurasians populations (muslim Arabs, etc). Then if the Eurasian admixtures in modern Egyptians is dated to an average of 750 years ago. Then it show us genetically, using modern populations, that Ancient Egyptians couldn't be nothing else than indigenous black Africans. That is people who didn't leave the continent during the OOA migrations (although they have migrated a lot within it). The precursor cultures of the Ancient Egyptians state can be found as far back as 5000 BC if not before (Nabta Playa, Tasians, Badarians, Naqada, etc). There's no way 750 years ago can turn to 5000BC in another study. This is also what is demonstrated to us by the ancient DNA of Ancient Egyptians we have at the moment.
    Last edited by ep2; 2015-06-22 at 01:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ep2 View Post
    In genetic studies Yoruba are often used as a proxy for Niger-Kordofanian speakers in general. It's quite possible, for example, that Wolof people, who are also Niger-Kordofanian speakers, would be closer to the OOA migrants than the Yoruba if they would have been included in this whole genome study. I don't think any people can have a precise tradition which goes so far back in time. I think the most recent common ancestors between Ancient Egyptians and West Africans are much more remote than during the Ancient Egyptian state time. Probably before 10 000 years ago (although well after the OOA migrations).


    Tutankhamun's haplogroup was never determined. This was a false internet rumor. DNA Tribes place his autosomal STR profile (limited to 8 locus iirc) mostly among Great Lakes, Southern and West African populations as mentioned above.
    Do you have any info on King Tut's genetic analysis?

    Like I said, I don't really have a horse in the race when it comes to the argument about the race of the ancient Egyptians, but I never did believe they were white, either, so when I read that about King Tut, I was like:



    And no, it's not of me being happy about it because he may have been "white" because I am, I'm not into that racial coattailing shit, it just struck me as interesting and surprising is all.

    It should be noted too, that the haplogroup claimed, R1b, while normally associated with Europeans is found among the Fulani people. Also something I find interesting.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_people
    Last edited by DragonRouge; 2015-06-22 at 01:55.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonRouge View Post
    Do you have any info on King Tut's genetic analysis?

    Like I said, I don't really have a horse in the race when it comes to the argument about the race of the ancient Egyptians, but I never did believe they were white, either, so when I read that about King Tut, I was like:



    And no, it's not of me being happy about it because he may have been "white" because I am, I'm not into that racial coattailing shit, it just struck me as interesting and surprising is all.

    It should be noted too, that the haplogroup claimed, R1b, while normally associated with Europeans is found among the Fulani people. Also something I find interesting.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fula_people
    People who say The Egyptians, Jesus, Greeks, etc. had to be "Black" or "White" have a small world view. They think the whole world has always been 20th century America, where everyone is "Black" or "White" and they live together. There's no debating, the Egyptians were mostly West Asian(from the distant past).

    R1b is not only in Europe. There was a massive founder effect of an R1b lineage from Russia that arrived in West Europe circa 2800 BC(Well, this is what Ancient DNA suggests), which is why it's so popular. Almost all West European R1b comes from one man who lived no more than 6,000 years ago.

    R1b is fairly popular in West Asia. There's a low chance if King Tut had R1b that it came from Europe. Even if he did have a West European R1b clade, there's a low chance most of his ancestry was European. Y DNA is just a paternal lineage. It could have been his greatx10 grandfather who had little effect on his overall genetic makeup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    There's no debating, the Egyptians were mostly West Asian(from the distant past).
    I wouldn't at all debate with you about Egyptians in later periods like when Christianity took a hold in the region if Copts are any good example but we honestly can't know what Egypt was like in its much earlier periods. I truly do not care for the Egyptian question (it's merely somewhat interesting) but I'd say Egypt was probably pretty heterogeneous in the distant past as I stated in another thread:

    Spoiler: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Awale View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac1 View Post
    Ancient Egyptians are more and more looking to have been even more Eurasian compared to modern Muslim Egyptians, at least for the Later periods if modern Copts are an indication. They (Copts) seem fairly homogeneous with likely little to no indication of any significant recent admixture.

    Btw OP, If Cushitics like Somalis who likely migrated to the Horn from Northern Sudan long before AE even started are ~40% Neolithic West Eurasian, what is the chance do you think of Ancient Egyptians being pure or close to pure indigenous African? It would be one heck of a gigantic surprise, I'll tell you that! In any case, I can't wait for SNP based autosomal Ancient DNA from AE . I wonder what sort of excuse you Afrocentrics would come up with once that happens
    Call the Sheikh cray cray but I have a feeling they (Egyptians of much much earlier periods of Ancient Egypt) won't entirely be like Copts. Nobody shoot but I honestly think the Ancient Egyptians will in terms of West Asian V East African ancestry be something like these new Sudanese Arabs and Nubians (40 to 60% or more West Asian/ ENF) to like Copts= I expect heterogeneity. I dunno, bruh. From looking at depictions of themselves and comparing them to depictions some Ancient Nubians made of themselves:


    Nubians (Don't recall what period but this is pretty damn old):


    Spoiler: 



    Ramses II (who lived as early as ~1300 BCE)

    Spoiler: 


    I think it's entirely possible that some members of the two groups (Nubians were depicted in rather diverse ways: [-] , [-], as were very early period Egyptians: [-] , [-], [-]) were pretty similar physically and genetically. Why on Earth do some depictions on both sides come out physically identical otherwise? You could place that depiction of Ramses and many other Egyptians from his time or earlier in that Nubian tomb and they'd fit right in.

    Granted, I always thought from looking at Nubians and some Sudanese Arabs (phenotypes) that there'd be some "heterogeneity" about genetically and in terms of admixture levels, this new study indeed proves that:

    Spoiler: 



    The Ancient Nubians also seemed to be rather heterogeneous (from the way they were depicted) and I wouldn't be shocked if they were all over the place like their modern counterparts (if not more heterogeneous). I think Ancient Egypt might be similar-> a lot of heterogeneity. You will probably find people like these Copts (very ENF) and then people who are clearly much more African though I doubt you'll ever find a great many people at the admixture levels Mela-retard is praying for.

    All just my humble opinion really & based on something shifty; phenotypes. And I could be entirely wrong. I don't read much at all about Egyptian history and truth be told-> I don't really give a shit about Ancient Egypt. I mean it's interesting but that's about it. I would nod my head in acceptance if they tested ancient samples and they came out 50% WHG.

    Anyway, stop this right now! This is not a serious thread! Do not grace a thread started by Mela-nun with an intelligent conversation! That's sacrilege, man!

    Spoiler: 
    Intelligent posters; GTFO! And just let Mela-nun keep digging his own grave.


    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter
    R1b is fairly popular in West Asia. There's a low chance if King Tut had R1b that it came from Europe. Even if he did have a West European R1b clade, there's a low chance most of his ancestry was European. Y DNA is just a paternal lineage. It could have been his greatx10 grandfather who had little effect on his overall genetic makeup.
    Yep, people make too much of Haplogroups sometimes. A person could look almost entirely Tigrinya in terms of autosomal DNA and have had one random as hell male Polish ancestor 10 generations ago and turn up R1a.

    And markers that are not truly that representative of a population's autosomal DNA data can become very dominant via founder effects and bottlenecks and what have you.
    Last edited by Awale; 2015-06-22 at 13:44.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krefter View Post
    There's no debating, the Egyptians were mostly West Asian(from the distant past).
    Throughout much of its history, up until possibly the New Kingdom, the majority of Egypt's heterogenous population resided in the region near the general border with Ancient Nubia between the cities of Luxor and Aswan; the other region with a sizable population was the region just south of the Delta. In contrast, the Delta and "Middle Egypt" was scarcely population by all accounts.

    Based on the few available genetic studies on Egypt or by simply eye-balling the contemporary inhabitants of Luxor-Aswan, it's pretty apparent that Ancient Egypt grew out of East Africa. For example, the dynasties of Old and Middle Kingdom Egypt were more concerned of the policies of southern states such as Kerma, Punt, and Yam than they were of those in SW Eurasia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonRouge View Post
    Do you have any info on King Tut's genetic analysis?
    I've post it in the original post. Links to ancient DNA studies (including King Tut JAMA/DNA Tribes 1 ): (BMJ, JAMA, DNA Tribes analysis 1, DNA Tribes analysis 2)


    And no, it's not of me being happy about it because he may have been "white" because I am, I'm not into that racial coattailing shit, it just struck me as interesting and surprising is all.
    I'm black and I don't want to claim Ancient Egyptians were black Africans if it wasn't the case. I'm interested in truth and authentic African history not fake crap. It's just very hard to ignore current aDNA results and other genetic/archaeological works piling up like the one discussed on this thread. It can't all be a big coincidence.

    Many Afrocentrists of the past wouldn't like the current scientific results (unless they don't mind re-evaluating their theory as any scientists should) because while the Ancient Egyptians may be Africans (related to modern Sub-Saharan African populations) the connection is remote and probably much before the Ancient Egyptians empire. A far cry from the image of the fleeing black African Ancient Egyptians from the hordes of foreign invaders who would now be every modern African populations. Ancient Egyptians may have been indigenous black Africans but they were their own people.
    Last edited by ep2; 2015-06-22 at 16:15.

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