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Thread: Christianity: a blessing or a curse for Europe?942 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Christianity has other strong influences besides Zoroastrianism, particularly Mesopotamian/Assyrian, Neoplatonic Greek, Osiris and Egyptian, and actually the Roman Empire. Christianity's spirit is much more Indo-European, Persian, Mesopotamian, and Neoplatonic Greek (and later Roman, Germanic, etc.) than it is Judaic in spirit.

    My point is, Christianity should distance itself from Judaism and the Old Testament. Whenever it does that, it becomes better. Christians should deny any link with Jews.

    I do think the whole thing about light being equivalent to good and darkness equivalent to bad came from Zoroastrianism though, as a previous post explained, but you'e right, the influence as a whole on Christianity is not squarely from Persia.
    An Shigao, you pack a lot of information into your post. It would be more clear if you wrote simple points and went into detail. Also I think the OP was asking more about practical consequences than theological details, which don't really matter for the common people who practiced religion in the past.
    Last edited by Сталкер; 2015-06-23 at 16:41.

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    Acquisitorz (2015-06-23)

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  4. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Сталкер View Post
    Christianity is a Jewish invention, not a Persian one. Also, you do know that the period An Shingao is talking about, Persians were not muslims (in fact Mohammed was not even born yet?).
    Well duh, my comment was clearly very sarcastic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    My point is, Christianity should distance itself from Judaism and the Old Testament. Whenever it does that, it becomes better. Christians should deny any link with Jews.
    I do agree that there shouldn't be a strong link with the old testament or with judaism but you can't deny Jesus's ancestry (jewish mother and likely jewish father) or the fact that he was spreading his very progressive ideas among other jews.

    But hey, I see you linked it all to Persians, which is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.
    Last edited by Acquisitorz; 2015-06-23 at 17:03.
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    Btw, another reason Bill Warner is talking bullshit is that Western Europe was very much ensconced in that period and pretty much as far back as you can look. The only people Western Europeans engaged in sustained and regular conflict in was other Western Europeans.

    You want to know a region that is completely bathed, showered, and buried in blood? Central Asia. Now there is a place that was literally a graveyard for everybody and everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acquisitorz View Post
    I do agree that there shouldn't be a strong link with the old testament or with judaism but you can't deny Jesus's ancestry (jewish mother and likely jewish father) or the fact that he was spreading his very progressive ideas among other jews.

    But hey, I see you linked it all to Persians, which is the most absurd thing I have ever heard.
    A lot of Judaism was pretty different back then and had little to no relationship to the Judaism of today. Judaism had a lot of influence from Assyrian and Persian religion, being a bit more inclined towards Gnostic-like views, back then. I was wrong to link it all to Persians, but the idesa of good (synonymous with light) and evil (synonymous with dark) being in a kind of conflict comes and messiah of light (e.g., Jesus = Saoshyant) squarely from Persia, but Christianity is not only about that. I do think the apocalyptic idea of Frashokereti probably goes back to other cultures, yeah.

    Also as another example, Mani was a Persian Jew whose father was involved in the Jewish-Christian sect of Elcesaites. Look at what their beliefs resembled. I actually like Mani a little bit more than Jesus.

    Cathars can be considered as Neo-Manichaeists. Some of them claimed to be so, but there is scholarly dispute there.

    Honestly, talking about the theology of all of this is difficult. There was strong influence from Zoroastrianism, but it's true, there was a lot of strong influences from other religions too. It was more of a network of influences.

    I don't think there was a singular, unitary Judaism or Christianity. Their beliefs were all over the place, just like Hindus (you can actually break up Hinduism to 4 different strands of traditional thought).

    Also, some early Christians believed belching rids matter of its "evil particles" or whatever.

    Finally, the Nordic-like depictions of Jesus bother me. Jesus most likely looked like Mani:



    Anyways, my point for the topic was I think early Gnostic Christianity is better than Neo-Paganism mixed with ethnonationalism. I've already given reasons why.
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2015-06-23 at 18:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Acquisitorz View Post
    Quite interesting arguments here.

    1) Christianity is apparently a Persian "invention".
    2) Its muslims who made Europe into what it is today.

    In other words: all heil Mecca.
    Who said Muslims "made Europe into what it is today"?
    Can you address whats been said instead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Сталкер View Post
    This is a retarded question. Europeans have been christians for 2000 years. That is a long enough time, for christianity to have imbued innumerable characteristics, behaviors, tastes, biases, and dispositions.

    What's more, is that european christianity was very much shaped and nurtured by europeans themselves, the Roman Catholic Church was simply the continuation of the Roman empire.

    Even liberalism today, which strongest in europe, is a product of Christianity. Even european flavors of atheism are products of Christianity.

    What I mean is atheists are different depending on their background: Christian atheists vs Muslim atheists vs Jewish atheists.

    I have noticed that Christian atheists (like Richard Dawkins) promote basically secular humanistic values, and they try to spread their mission worldwide by supporting regional movements.

    But Turkish muslim atheists are totally different. And believe me there are turkish atheists. I am one and I know others. How are they "muslim" atheists? They want to go head to head with religious people, if necessary fight in the streets, and generally take an all or nothing approach with them.

    Religion is more than just believing in god(s). It also gives you certain characteristics, depending on the religion.
    This is a pretty good post, and very true: modern atheist Europeans are very influenced by Christianity. European societies in general are too. Also, Christianity was arguably an atheist religion in and of itself, because it eliminated all other gods (back then, polytheism was basically the norm).

    And yes, "Muslim atheists" (Turks etc.) are far more aggressive and inhumane, but what else is new?
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    This is a pretty good post, and very true: modern atheist Europeans are very influenced by Christianity. European societies in general are too. Also, Christianity was arguably an atheist religion in and of itself, because it eliminated all other gods (back then, polytheism was basically the norm).

    And yes, "Muslim atheists" (Turks etc.) are far more aggressive and inhumane, but what else is new?
    I remember thetick and Elizabeth said that Christianity is not a leftist religion, while you argue that it is. I like that discussion.
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