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Thread: Gedmatch Results of Rwandan812 days old

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    To throw another, non scientific wrench, into this discussion, Rwandan oral traditions tell a tale of two groups of Tutsis - the tall dark Tutsis who came from the north and the shorter, lighter Tutsis who came from the south. These two Tutsi groups supposedly mixed and gave birth to the rainbow that is Tutsis today.

    I agree with Pat11 that we were a Nilo-Saharan people who absorbed Cushites.

    And as for why we still have a high Cushitic percentage after hundreds of years of living among Bantu populations, well, that's simple, selective breeding practices.
    Last edited by curiouskitty; 2017-10-19 at 19:35.

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  4. #132
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    The most striking thing for me taking this DNA results is that on Harappaworld, Ethiohelix and PuntDNA, the closest population I get is Hema. The thing is when I visited Rwanda I also noticed striking similarity in language between Kinyarwanda and Kikuyu especially with regards to counting numbers and some other aspects. Counting numbers is almost identical in both languages from 1 to 999 and there are also very many other shared words. I was quite surprised by the language similarity because I didn't expect that it could happen that far way from Kenya.
    I happen to have visited Rwanda a few times and based on phenotypes, there's some Rwandans who are very dark and very tall who certainly look different from the typical Kikuyu look but there are those who are lighter skinned and not that tall who share a phenotype with a typical Kikuyu and some I was sure I could go back with to ancestral Kikuyu lands and no one would notice their phenotypical difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouskitty View Post
    To throw another, non scientific wrench, into this discussion, Rwandan oral traditions tell a tale of two groups of Tutsis - the tall dark Tutsis who came from the north and the shorter, lighter Tutsis who came from the south. These two Tutsi groups supposedly mixed and gave birth to the rainbow that is Tutsis today.

    I agree with Pat11 that we were a Nilo-Saharan people who absorbed Cushites.

    And as for why we still have a high Cushitic percentage after hundreds of years of living among Bantu populations, well, that's simple, selective breeding practices.

    I am not a fan of Rwanda cultural oral traditional, but it gives you a hint of what happened in the Rwanda history. When I saw diversirty in Tutsi y haplogroup, I wasn't suprised at all because oral traditional mentioned different name clans among Tutsi. I even expect diversity among abanyiginya sub clans. Let's wait for my results, then we will find out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious_African View Post
    The most striking thing for me taking this DNA results is that on Harappaworld, Ethiohelix and PuntDNA, the closest population I get is Hema. The thing is when I visited Rwanda I also noticed striking similarity in language between Kinyarwanda and Kikuyu especially with regards to counting numbers and some other aspects. Counting numbers is almost identical in both languages from 1 to 999 and there are also very many other shared words. I was quite surprised by the language similarity because I didn't expect that it could happen that far way from Kenya.
    I happen to have visited Rwanda a few times and based on phenotypes, there's some Rwandans who are very dark and very tall who certainly look different from the typical Kikuyu look but there are those who are lighter skinned and not that tall who share a phenotype with a typical Kikuyu and some I was sure I could go back with to ancestral Kikuyu lands and no one would notice their phenotypical difference.
    East african bantu languages are related even if they are not intelligible. Counting numbers words didn't exist in kinyarwanda language, those numbers words were borrowed from kiswahili. Being closest to Hema, it could be due to small numbers or lack of Kenya samples. Kikuyu having cushitic/nilosaharians like admixture is understandable since your neigbhours are cushites/nilotes. But in Rwanda, there is no nilotes/cushites like people,. The cushitic/nilote like admixture in Rda, it is very ancient and was probably brought to Rda from Tanzania. Tutsi/hutu are related more than they will be let's say to a Kikuyu. More Rda/Bdi/Uganda/Tanzania samples are needed.

  7. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    The sample from the African Genome Variation Project includes some Rwandans, Burundians, Kenyans (Kikuyu/Kalenjin/Luhya) and Ugandans (Baganda). The Rwandans and Burundians were not labeled by ethnicity, but presumably the individuals that are more Horner than Bantu are Tutsi, and those who look about 80% Bantu, if I guesstimate (the majority), are Hutu.

    Interestingly, the Burundian has more of a sharp cut-off between the groups, i.e. 2 samples are probably Tutsi, and a few other samples are pretty much halfway between them and the presumed Hutus, so probably recently mixed. In the Rwandan sample, the variation looks a bit more gradual. Perhaps Gihanga knows if people were more prone to mix between Tutsis and Hutus in Rwanda compared to Burundi?

    But even the presumed Hutu Rwandans/Burundians are still more Cushitic-like than the Baganda and Luhya (but less than Kikuyu). So regular Hutus probably also have South Cushitic admixture. You could say that Tutsis are mostly South Cushitic with Bantu admixture, and Hutus are mostly Bantu with South Cushitic admixture. If we allow ourselves to use these linguistic labels to describe population admixture, that is.


    I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the "Tutsi" Y-DNA samples from that particular study were a sham. They are too different from the results of the Hema (28% E1b1b1), Tutsis from Burundi (22% E-M293) and 23andMe results to make any sense. They may even have rounded up a bunch of Hutus (and a few Twas to explain the B?), and called them "Tutsis". Ethnic identifications are a sensitive issue in Rwanda, and from what I understand the current government doesn't even recognize them.
    TheTutsi y haplogroup study from Tishkoff came short due to lack of enough samples. She called it mixed Tutsi/Hutu samples because they refused to tell her their ethnic background (still controversial in Rda). The older study(they didn't mention which clan/where/country/province those sample were collected from/it is only say Rwandan Tutsi/from diaspora?) I don't understand what was the purpose of it, they didn't even test for the mitochondrial/autosomal DNA, they probably wanted to prove Tutsi are similar to bantu. Tutsi clans are not homogeneous, they need at least to have the courtesy to test Rwandan based on clans/geographical area, because I am 100% if you asked rdans their clans(hutu/tuts know who is who based on clans/controversial) they will tell the truth. The genocide against rwandan Tutsi (1959-1994) and in Burundi (1960s/1990s) affected the diversity of y haplogroup among Tutsi, some clans were completely wiped out. So, I am afraid we will never found out, the only strong evidence left is autosomal DNA. That's why the best/strong reference for Tutsi are hima/hema from Uganda/RDC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pat11 View Post
    East african bantu languages are related even if they are not intelligible. Counting numbers words didn't exist in kinyarwanda language, those numbers words were borrowed from kiswahili. Being closest to Hema, it could be due to small numbers or lack of Kenya samples. Kikuyu having cushitic/nilosaharians like admixture is understandable since your neigbhours are cushites/nilotes. But in Rwanda, there is no nilotes/cushites like people,. The cushitic/nilote like admixture in Rda, it is very ancient and was probably brought to Rda from Tanzania. Tutsi/hutu are related more than they will be let's say to a Kikuyu. More Rda/Bdi/Uganda/Tanzania samples are needed.
    The language similarity is certainly not from Swahili but goes much earlier than that. I know Kiswahili well which is a mixture of Bantu and Arabic. Here's some counting numbers in Kinyarwanda, Kikuyu and Swahili respectively. Note the closeness of the languages, which goes beyond even similarities with other Bantu languages in Kenya for Kikuyu for example.
    1. Rimwe, Imwe, Moja
    2. Kabiri, Igiri, Mbili
    3. Gatatu, Ithatu, Tatu
    4. Kane, Inya, Nne
    5. Gatanu, Ithano, Tano
    6. Gatandatu, Ithathatu, Sita
    7. Karindwi, Mugwanja, Saba
    8. Umunani, Inyanya, Nane
    9. Icyenda, Kenda, Tisa/Kenda
    10. Icumi, Ikumi, kumi
    20. Makamyabiri, Mirongo Iri, Ishirini
    30. Miringo Itatu, Mirongo Ithatu, Thelathini
    40. Miringo Ine, Mirongo Inya, Arobaini
    50. Miringo Itanu, Mirongo Itano, Hamsini
    60. Miringo Itandatu, Mirongo Itandatu, Sitini
    70. Miringo Irindwi, Mirongo Mugwanja, Sabini
    80. Miringo Inane, Mirongo Inyanya, Themanini
    90. Miringo Icyenda, Mirongo Kenda, Tisini
    100. Ijana, Igana, Mia Moja
    200. Maganabiri, Magana Miri, Mia Mbili
    300. Maganatatu, Magana Matatu, Mia Tatu
    400. Maganane, Magana Mana, Mia Nne
    500. Maganatanu, Magana Matano, Mia Tano
    600. Maganatandatu, Magana Matandatu, Mia Sita
    700. Maganarindwi, Magana Mugwanja, Mia saba
    800. Maganinani, Magana Manana, Mia nane
    900. Maganacyenda, Magana Kenda, Mia Tisa
    1000. inzovu, ngiri, elfu

    Here's a different list of words in Kinyarwanda which would also be very easily understood by a Kikuyu speaker especially from the older generation
    Kwiga- to study >
    Kugamba- to talk
    Gukama-to milk
    Kurira- to cry
    Guseka- to laugh
    Kugenda-to travel
    Kugwa-to fall
    Kwifumbika-to cover oneself
    Gucoka-to go down
    Kubira- to be boiling =
    Nene-big =
    Kwambura-to take clothes off (*)
    Kuhamba- bury, take care (*)
    Dundu-mound(*)
    Kwanika-to put out in the sun to dry
    Kwahukana-to separate
    Kwandika- to write
    Kwanura-to bring in from the sun
    Iciaro-village
    Kubana-to live together
    Kuberereka-to move aside to allow passage (*)
    Gucagagura-to chop up
    Gucucuma-to mash
    Gucukura-to dig a hole
    Gucumbika- to get lodging (*)
    Gucocora-to make fun of
    Kwegeka-to lean against
    Kwenda-accept
    Kwigurira-to give completely to
    Nyina/Nyoko- mother to someone
    Kwerekera-to turn toward
    Gufunga-to close
    Kuganira-converse with, to visit
    Kugaragara-to be visible
    Kugetsa-to harvest
    Kungigimira-to stutter (*)
    Mugogo-foot bridge
    Kugura-to buy
    Kugurana-to exchange article, to borrow
    Kwirigira-to trust, rely on, expect, hope (*)
    Kuira-to get late
    Iguriro-market place
    Kuguruka-to fly
    Kugwa-to fall
    Kuhagarara-to stand
    Hamwe-together
    Kuhangara-to harm
    Kuhanga-to introduce something
    Kuhanguka-to pass away, to end dry season (*)
    Haria-over there (Hara)
    Kuharura-to scrape, scratch, dig just top soil
    Kuhekenya-to chew
    Ihembe-horn
    Kuhemuka-to be unfaithful, to fail someone
    Kuhinda-to thunder (*)
    Kuhihibikana-to follow earnestly (*)
    Kuhinduka-to change
    Kuhindukira-to turn around
    Kuhinga-to cultivate, hoe, dig
    Kuhinguka-to arrive
    Kuhinyura-to scorn, criticize
    Kuhirwa-to be fortunate, blessed
    Kuhitwa-to have diarrhea
    Kuhobera-to embrace(*)
    Kuhonoka-to survive
    Kuhora-to cool down
    Kuhomboka-to speak without thinking
    Kuhotora-to twist cords
    Kuhuga-to forget for the moment, be busy
    Kuhuguka-to be intelligent, skilled, capable (kogeriha)
    Ihuguriro-workshop, place of counsel (*)
    Kuhuha-to blow (Kuhuza)
    Kuhungura-to marry brother’s widow (*)
    Kwigana-to imitate (*)
    Kwigaragura-to thrush around (*)
    Kwigendera-to go by oneself
    Kwihorera-to be silent (*)
    Kwiherera-to be alone (kwevera)
    Kwihuta-to hurry (*)
    Kwirata-to boast, be proud (Kwerora)
    Kwiregura-to defend oneself (*)

    So my conclusion is that there is a non-trivial language similarity which somehow is striking because there are a bunch of Ugandan tribes between Kenya and Rwanda which are bantu but do not have this much similarity. There's also some names which are similar in both Kinyarwanda and Kikuyu such as Umutoni which in Kikuyu is the common girl name Muthoni.

  9. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curious_African View Post
    The language similarity is certainly not from Swahili but goes much earlier than that. I know Kiswahili well which is a mixture of Bantu and Arabic. Here's some counting numbers in Kinyarwanda, Kikuyu and Swahili respectively. Note the closeness of the languages, which goes beyond even similarities with other Bantu languages in Kenya for Kikuyu for example.
    1. Rimwe, Imwe, Moja
    2. Kabiri, Igiri, Mbili
    3. Gatatu, Ithatu, Tatu
    4. Kane, Inya, Nne
    5. Gatanu, Ithano, Tano
    6. Gatandatu, Ithathatu, Sita
    7. Karindwi, Mugwanja, Saba
    8. Umunani, Inyanya, Nane
    9. Icyenda, Kenda, Tisa/Kenda
    10. Icumi, Ikumi, kumi
    20. Makamyabiri, Mirongo Iri, Ishirini
    30. Miringo Itatu, Mirongo Ithatu, Thelathini
    40. Miringo Ine, Mirongo Inya, Arobaini
    50. Miringo Itanu, Mirongo Itano, Hamsini
    60. Miringo Itandatu, Mirongo Itandatu, Sitini
    70. Miringo Irindwi, Mirongo Mugwanja, Sabini
    80. Miringo Inane, Mirongo Inyanya, Themanini
    90. Miringo Icyenda, Mirongo Kenda, Tisini
    100. Ijana, Igana, Mia Moja
    200. Maganabiri, Magana Miri, Mia Mbili
    300. Maganatatu, Magana Matatu, Mia Tatu
    400. Maganane, Magana Mana, Mia Nne
    500. Maganatanu, Magana Matano, Mia Tano
    600. Maganatandatu, Magana Matandatu, Mia Sita
    700. Maganarindwi, Magana Mugwanja, Mia saba
    800. Maganinani, Magana Manana, Mia nane
    900. Maganacyenda, Magana Kenda, Mia Tisa
    1000. inzovu, ngiri, elfu

    Here's a different list of words in Kinyarwanda which would also be very easily understood by a Kikuyu speaker especially from the older generation
    Kwiga- to study >
    Kugamba- to talk
    Gukama-to milk
    Kurira- to cry
    Guseka- to laugh
    Kugenda-to travel
    Kugwa-to fall
    Kwifumbika-to cover oneself
    Gucoka-to go down
    Kubira- to be boiling =
    Nene-big =
    Kwambura-to take clothes off (*)
    Kuhamba- bury, take care (*)
    Dundu-mound(*)
    Kwanika-to put out in the sun to dry
    Kwahukana-to separate
    Kwandika- to write
    Kwanura-to bring in from the sun
    Iciaro-village
    Kubana-to live together
    Kuberereka-to move aside to allow passage (*)
    Gucagagura-to chop up
    Gucucuma-to mash
    Gucukura-to dig a hole
    Gucumbika- to get lodging (*)
    Gucocora-to make fun of
    Kwegeka-to lean against
    Kwenda-accept
    Kwigurira-to give completely to
    Nyina/Nyoko- mother to someone
    Kwerekera-to turn toward
    Gufunga-to close
    Kuganira-converse with, to visit
    Kugaragara-to be visible
    Kugetsa-to harvest
    Kungigimira-to stutter (*)
    Mugogo-foot bridge
    Kugura-to buy
    Kugurana-to exchange article, to borrow
    Kwirigira-to trust, rely on, expect, hope (*)
    Kuira-to get late
    Iguriro-market place
    Kuguruka-to fly
    Kugwa-to fall
    Kuhagarara-to stand
    Hamwe-together
    Kuhangara-to harm
    Kuhanga-to introduce something
    Kuhanguka-to pass away, to end dry season (*)
    Haria-over there (Hara)
    Kuharura-to scrape, scratch, dig just top soil
    Kuhekenya-to chew
    Ihembe-horn
    Kuhemuka-to be unfaithful, to fail someone
    Kuhinda-to thunder (*)
    Kuhihibikana-to follow earnestly (*)
    Kuhinduka-to change
    Kuhindukira-to turn around
    Kuhinga-to cultivate, hoe, dig
    Kuhinguka-to arrive
    Kuhinyura-to scorn, criticize
    Kuhirwa-to be fortunate, blessed
    Kuhitwa-to have diarrhea
    Kuhobera-to embrace(*)
    Kuhonoka-to survive
    Kuhora-to cool down
    Kuhomboka-to speak without thinking
    Kuhotora-to twist cords
    Kuhuga-to forget for the moment, be busy
    Kuhuguka-to be intelligent, skilled, capable (kogeriha)
    Ihuguriro-workshop, place of counsel (*)
    Kuhuha-to blow (Kuhuza)
    Kuhungura-to marry brother’s widow (*)
    Kwigana-to imitate (*)
    Kwigaragura-to thrush around (*)
    Kwigendera-to go by oneself
    Kwihorera-to be silent (*)
    Kwiherera-to be alone (kwevera)
    Kwihuta-to hurry (*)
    Kwirata-to boast, be proud (Kwerora)
    Kwiregura-to defend oneself (*)

    So my conclusion is that there is a non-trivial language similarity which somehow is striking because there are a bunch of Ugandan tribes between Kenya and Rwanda which are bantu but do not have this much similarity. There's also some names which are similar in both Kinyarwanda and Kikuyu such as Umutoni which in Kikuyu is the common girl name Muthoni.
    Brother I said Bantu language are related. I have evidence showing Bantu languages from Zimbabwe/Malawi/Zambia/Tanzania share a lot of words with Kinyarwanda. I know you are making a good case, But kinyarwanda/kinyankole-kiga are almost intelligible, luganda also influenced kinyarwanda, kinyoro, kinyoro. You need to create your own thread, because I am afraid we may be getting off topic this page was about Rwandan.

  10. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by curiouskitty View Post
    To throw another, non scientific wrench, into this discussion, Rwandan oral traditions tell a tale of two groups of Tutsis - the tall dark Tutsis who came from the north and the shorter, lighter Tutsis who came from the south. These two Tutsi groups supposedly mixed and gave birth to the rainbow that is Tutsis today.

    I agree with Pat11 that we were a Nilo-Saharan people who absorbed Cushites.

    And as for why we still have a high Cushitic percentage after hundreds of years of living among Bantu populations, well, that's simple, selective breeding practices.
    believe what you want, go with you're gut..
    I feel like the the thread on skoglund should get bumped so we can speak on the intricacies there, cuz clearly somethings flew over some users heads and I ain't gonna derail from this this point on, however I appreciate your contribution including a breakdown of your oral history.

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    What are your K36 results?

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