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Thread: Kurds vs Assyrians - The full story ?1491 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Apple View Post
    Kurds are not native. Don't care if Iranic groups have been in Mesopotamia since 2000 years ago. Most Assyrians lived in southeastern Turkey(Hakkari, Tur Abdin/Mardin, and Bhotan), followed by northwestern Iran(Urmia, Salamas) before Kurds massacred our people during the Assyrian Genocide/Seyfo of WWI.

    Timur and the Mongols massacred us from central Mesopotamia(around Baghdad and Tikrit), thus the two massacres aren't really overlapping in geographical terms.

    You do know many Iraqi Arabs are Arabized Assyrians right? Not that they identify that way but they certainly have it in their genes and thus they are more native to Iraq than Kurds are. The exception being people in southern Iraq who are more or less transplanted Arabians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    You do know many Iraqi Arabs are Arabized Assyrians right? Not that they identify that way but they certainly have it in their genes and thus they are more native to Iraq than Kurds are. The exception being people in southern Iraq who are more or less transplanted Arabians.
    What does that have to do with anything? Baghdad is a melting pot of different "Arab" and non-Arab communities. Tikrit is probably more Arabized Assyrians because of some cultural practices they still retain, but Arab migrations throughout the country could have easily destabilized this. I made no mention of Arabs living in Nineveh or the direct surrounding areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Сталкер View Post
    I'd rather be people of the dollar, tbh.

    Kurds are good people. Assyrians too. They get along fine nowadays.
    Nope. Kurds recently assassinated two Assyrian leaders in Syria, took Assyrian land by forced evacuation in Turkey to build their projects/remove what little Assyrian presence remains there, and annex all remaining Assyrian territories in Iraq as well as disallowing Assyrians in Dohuk/Nohadra to learn in the universities by teaching in Kurdish instead of English just to be spiteful. The relations are not "good."
    Last edited by The Apple; 2015-08-25 at 01:00.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyw View Post
    I think Zert hit the nail on this one, as he perfectly described what I feel and think. What people forget is that the migration of Iranic tribes to Mesopotamia took place before a Kurdish identity had developed. I therefore find it faulty to equate Kurds wih these Iranic tribes, but I suppose this isn't a real issue - just an opinion of mine.

    Yeah, I've also thought of this, but I assume it simply has to do with each people's culture, as Kurds have been (semi-)nomads for a long time, and illiteracy has probably been higher among us for a long time because of various reasons (I think being stateless might be one reason, but I have no basis for that statement).

    Kurds seem to have minded their own business and kept to their own a lot more, which might be because they've been much more decentralized during history. Although not a people of science (as it appears today and in history), Kurds seem to be fairly good at literature/poetry (and music but that's a bit irrelevant).
    Kinda true, but one must make a distinction between the rural tribal Kurds, and the urban Kurds. The former are what most people picture the Kurds as, while the latter are often forgotten/ignored, but seem to have had decent scholarly output, and functioned as a bridge between Persian and Turkish cultures.



    Some notable writers/scholars were Abu'l-Fida, Idris-i Bitlisi, Nizami Ganjavi (half-Kurd), Sharafkhan Bidlisi, Ahmad Khani, Molla Gurani, Said Nursi and Abdullah Cevdet.

    In some cases it's hard to identify Kurds, since the lingua franca was Arabic and Persian (and later Turkish). To give examples, Suhrawardi and Ibn Khallikan were born in regions chiefly populated by Kurds, but are mostly cited as being, respectively, Persian and Arab scholars, which, without further information about their background, is understandable, I guess.

    And lol An Shigao, neither the pen nor the sword? Please stop being ridiculous, Kurds were almost always (until the late 19th century) known for being good fighters. That is one of the reasons why Kurds were hard to subject and thus often were given some form of autonomy.

    Nope. Kurds recently assassinated two Assyrian leaders in Syria, took Assyrian land by forced evacuation in Turkey to build their projects/remove what little Assyrian presence remains there, and annex all remaining Assyrian territories in Iraq as well as disallowing Assyrians in Dohuk/Nohadra to learn in the universities by teaching in Kurdish instead of English just to be spiteful. The relations are not "good."
    And here, good people, is what you get when a diaspora Kurd-hating Assyrian tries to bring you the news. I earlier mentioned 'isolated incidents notwithstanding', because, when talking about discrimination, it's not sufficient to talk about single cases, you need systemized persecution.

    The murderers of the Assyrians leaders have already been convicted. On the other hand, the YPG has Assyrian militias, which they've trained and fought alongside with, and the Assyrians are free to govern their own areas. That's policy.

    5 seats in the Iraqi Kurdish parliament have been reserved for Assyrians, no matter how many votes they get. In the last years, a massive amount IDP's (1,5 million, last time I checked) have flocked to Kurdistan. I've heard of some discrimination against Arabs, but not against Assyrians. That's policy. Why in the hell should courses be given in English in Dohuk anyway?
    Last edited by Zert; 2015-08-25 at 01:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zert View Post
    Kinda true, but one must make a distinction between the rural tribal Kurds, and the urban Kurds. The former are what most people picture the Kurds as, while the latter are often forgotten/ignored, but seem to have had decent scholarly output, and functioned as a bridge between Persian and Turkish cultures.



    Some notable writers/scholars were Abu'l-Fida, Idris-i Bitlisi, Nizami Ganjavi (half-Kurd), Sharafkhan Bidlisi, Ahmad Khani, Molla Gurani, Said Nursi and Abdullah Cevdet.

    In some cases it's hard to identify Kurds, since the lingua franca was Arabic and Persian (and later Turkish). To give examples, Suhrawardi and Ibn Khallikan were born in regions chiefly populated by Kurds, but are mostly cited as being, respectively, Persian and Arab scholars, which, without further information about their background, is understandable, I guess.

    And lol An Shigao, neither the pen nor the sword? Please stop being ridiculous, Kurds were almost always (until the late 19th century) known for being good fighters. That is one of the reasons why Kurds were hard to subject and thus often were given some form of autonomy.

    Like I said, the debate regarding whether kurds originate from iranians will always be subject to various opinions,its not something set in stone and besides its not something I lose sleep over anyway, kurds to iranians have always been positive and there is no malice from the Iranian side as far as I am aware of. However I am curious to hear your views on whether today's land which the kurds inhabit is legitimately yours? from what I know of, and I could be horribly wrong, we can tick of turkey,Syria as land which was originally inhabited by kurds right? as the kurds spread out to those lands over time as part of Islamic crusades etc. So that leaves Iraq and Iran left but lets focus on Iraq. What are your thoughts of the accusations that the kurds in today's Iraq are living on Assyrian soil?

    Because I may be mistaken (like I said I have not fully researched this so I am going by what I have heard from this and that) but if the Kurdish diaspora in turkey and Syria are the result of migrating into the those lands, then how can we expect them to suddenly give up those lands if a future Kurdish state were to exist . I had thought that the kurds most plausible and most likely route to an independent state is through the Iraq section, as it seemed like that was land which was actually inhabited by the kurds for a long time, but apparently judging from some of the posts here and a bit of online research it seems that the region of Kurdistan in Iraq was originally home to the Assyrians. Which if true, then I am of the opinion that the Assyrians can and should make a better case for an independent state. Can somebody correct or validate me on this one ?

    An interesting post I found, its from a while back but quite informative. Its from an Assyrian point of view so it could be biased who knows. Ill post the most interesting parts below.


    "Ibn Jubayr (1144-1217) was born in Andalusia, the name given to present Spain and Portugal during the Arab Islamic rule of the Iberian Peninsula. He was a scholar in Islamic studies and of literature. However, what he is most famous for is the three long journeys he took in the Moslem world at the time. Later, he described his travel experiences in a book titled "The Journey of Ibn Jubayr." About the city of Nisibin in Assyria, Ibn Jubayr writes on page 215 that they visited the city for one day and upon leaving the city, they were cautious because of continuous attacks by Kurds who he described as the disease of the region from Mosul to Nisibin and to Dunaysir. The Kurds, writes Ibn Jubayr, brought decay and spoiledness to the region and they lived in the protected mountainous region nearby the cities mentioned above. Even the successive sultans, adds Ibn Jubayr, were unable to suppress and tame the Kurds who might have sometimes and during their raids reached the gates of Nisibin. [4] Here, Ibn Jubayr attests that the Kurds lived in the mountainous regions beyond the cities of Mosul and Nisibin. He states that these Kurds in their raids might have sometimes reached the gates of Nisibin. The last sentence here proves clearly that the Kurds were not dwellers of the cities in question but rather the mountains near by and that in their raids they might have and sometimes, and I stress 'might have and sometimes,' reached Nisibin.

    Despite the Turkomans actions, the Kurds continued to increase in numbers and they always needed new lands to graze. They attacked the peaceful Christian Assyrians of northern Mesopotamia, continued to seize new lands, and advanced slowly but surely into Mosul region. Around the 1790s, Olivier gave the following estimates for the population of Mosul: 7000-8000 Christians, 1000 Jews, 25,000 Arabs, 15,000-16,000 Kurds, and about as many Turks, or say 70,000 in all [5]. Meaning, the Kurds were around 20% of the Mosul population around A.D. 1800. In the 1920s, and according to the British civil administrator and later by mandated Iraq, the population of non-Moslem minorities in Iraq was around 400,000 while the Kurds were estimated at 800,000 from a total of 3,000.000 Iraqis [6] On both accounts, regional and national, the Kurds did not make a majority. In fact, this has been the case throughout the history of northern Iraq, the heartland of Assyria.

    Regardless to the fact that the Kurds origination is ambiguous in history, one fact remains unequivocal, and that is, they are not the indigenous people of northern Iraq (Assyria). Their presence in Persia (Iran) is described for example by Meisami. The author writes: "As for the Kurds of Fars, Ibn al-Balkhi notes that whereas in ancient times the indigenous Kurds were the glory of the Persian armies, with the coming of Islam they were all killed in battle or disappeared, except for a sole survivor who converted and whose descendants still live. The present Kurds of Fars were settled there by 'Adud al-Dawla, who brought them from the region of Isfahan." [7]

    A. Hakan Özuglu states that there does not exist a fixed Kurdistan and a Kurdish identity. Although a "core region," which could be "imagined," defined as Kurdistan, exists and in relation to which the Kurdish identity is formed, the boundaries of perceived Kurdistan are always in flux. Therefore, the perceived identity of the Kurd constantly changes, corresponding the demands of time and space. [8] Scholars have been trying to find the link of the modern Kurds in history. One of the most cited works is an article by a British scholar G. R. Driver. The scholar finds early mention of the word Kurd in Sumerian clay tablet from 3rd millennium B.C., on which a land of Kar-da or Qar-da was inscribed. This land was the region of the south of Lake Van (in eastern Turkey) inhabited by the people of "Su" who were connected with the Qur-ti-e, a group of mountain dwellers. The evidence though is too inconclusive to rely on. [9] Vladimir Minorsky, the author of the entry Kurds in the "Encyclopedia of Islam" suggests that the origin of Kurds is from the Medes. However, he states that the origin of the Kurds is buried in ancient times. Thus, one can classify Minorsky as a member of the essentialist school.

    Most reliable references to Kurds come with the invasion of Arabs of the 8th century. Hence, it is not a surprise to find that the modern word Kurd is of Arabic origin. Arab sources give systematic information concerning the distribution of the Kurdish tribes. The administrative term Kurdistan was used first by the Seljuk. In the 12th century, Sultan Sancar establishes the administrative region of Kurdistan in the eastern parts of the Zagros Mountains near Hamadan. The suffix –istan "the land of" is of Persian origin, hence, the earliest use of the name Kurdistan was in use by non-Kurds. Interestingly, the Arabs did not refer to Kurds as the inhabitants of Kurdistan, rather the inhabitants of Jabal (mountain), Zozan, Azarbaycan (Azerbaijan), and Armenia. The Arabs called collectively the people of unfamiliar Persian and Turkish languages as Kurds."

    http://www.atour.com/education/20030919a.html

    I don't know if what this person says is true, but lets assume it is. Then I absolutely understand the Assyrians stance in this debate. However I must point out that I personally have no issues with kurds or Assyrians whatsoever, its just an interesting case which I hope to learn more about in order to make my own judgement on it.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 2015-08-25 at 01:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancestryfan1994 View Post
    Like I said, the debate regarding whether kurds originate from iranians will always be subject to various opinions,its not something set in stone and besides its not something I lose sleep over anyway, kurds to iranians have always been positive and there is no malice from the Iranian side as far as I am aware of. However I am curious to hear your views on whether today's land which the kurds inhabit is legitimately yours? from what I know of, and I could be horribly wrong, we can tick of turkey,Syria as land which was originally inhabited by kurds right? as the kurds spread out to those lands over time as part of Islamic crusades etc. So that leaves Iraq and Iran left but lets focus on Iraq. What are your thoughts of the accusations that the kurds in today's Iraq are living on Assyrian soil?

    Because I may be mistaken (like I said I have not fully researched this so I am going by what I have heard from this and that) but if the Kurdish diaspora in turkey and Syria are the result of migrating into the those lands, then how can we expect them to suddenly give up those lands if a future Kurdish state were to exist . I had thought that the kurds most plausible and most likely route to an independent state is through the Iraq section, as it seemed like that was land which was actually inhabited by the kurds for a long time, but apparently judging from some of the posts here and a bit of online research it seems that the region of Kurdistan in Iraq was originally home to the Assyrians. Which if true, then I am of the opinion that the Assyrians can and should make a better case for an independent state. Can somebody correct or validate me on this one ?

    An interesting post I found, its from a while back but quite informative. Its from an Assyrian point of view so it could be biased who knows. Ill post the most interesting parts below.
    ...
    The author makes many mistakes (etymology and origins, which I explained earlier). Kurds couldn't have 'disappeared' from Syria and Mesopotamia since there's a clear continuity in their habitation in these regions throughout the centuries. The author really didn't put much information in anyway, he has one account of Kurds attacking Nisibe, and a few references to population numbers, which are hard to interprete since he doesn't specify whether he talks about the city or the region (Kurds don't claim the city of Mosul btw), and in the earlier uses of 'Mosul region' he doesn't even give a good outline of what this would encompass.

    He fails to make any mention to the sources I quoted earlier, certainly not fitting with his idea that Kurds couldn't have formed a majority in any of the North Mesopotamian region in the Middle Ages. 'Kurdistan' was first mentioned in an Armenian manuscript of the 12th century, not in 1597-1598, as he has it. Kurdish isn't a dialect of Persian. So no, I wouldn't take his article too seriously, and he seems very ill-informed. Are some parts of what he has written true? I'm not exactly sure, I'll have to look more into it, but his bias is very much apparent.

    Places of inhabitation change all the time through immigration, massacre, deportation etc. These are consequences of history, and happens all over the world. Tell Americans, Australians, white South Africans etc. to get bent, see how that works out. As horrible as the consequences can be, nobody is going to give you territory because your great-great-great-great-great-grandparents lived there. But, for those regions where Assyrians make up the majority? I fully support independence or autonomy, whatever they want, and a protected status where they form a sizeable part of the population.

    Edit: damn, I got involved in a discussion anyway, didn't I? This really was my last reply. I suggest, if you want quality information, read scholarly works, not short articles written by nationalist authors, be it Kurdish or Assyrian.
    Last edited by Zert; 2015-08-25 at 02:16.

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    Some notable writers/scholars were Abu'l-Fida, Idris-i Bitlisi, Nizami Ganjavi (half-Kurd), Sharafkhan Bidlisi, Ahmad Khani, Molla Gurani, Said Nursi and Abdullah Cevdet.
    Nizami was half Kurdish!?!?!?!

    Btw, the old iranian language spoken in Azerbaijan prior to Azeri turkish, was adhari, which is also nestled with Kurdish in the northwestern iranian family.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Сталкер View Post
    Nizami was half Kurdish!?!?!?!

    Btw, the old iranian language spoken in Azerbaijan prior to Azeri turkish, was adhari, which is also nestled with Kurdish in the northwestern iranian family.
    Your Turkish right? or azeri I am not sure. What are your views on the whole land stuff, I know the animosity between kurds and Turks exists for this very reason, so you are highly likely to oppose kurds taking the Turkish land, but what about the other parts of land from other nations which has potential to be part of a Kurdish independent state? Do you think they have a right to be able to branch off and form their own state. Because I was a full supporter of the kurds and their fight for independence from the Iraqi section for a long time, sill have no issue with the kurds themselves, but the whole independence talk doesn't make much moral sense now when bringing the Assyrians and their rights into the equation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ancestryfan1994 View Post
    Your Turkish right? or azeri I am not sure. What are your views on the whole land stuff, I know the animosity between kurds and Turks exists for this very reason, so you are highly likely to oppose kurds taking the Turkish land, but what about the other parts of land from other nations which has potential to be part of a Kurdish independent state? Do you think they have a right to be able to branch off and form their own state. Because I was a full supporter of the kurds and their fight for independence from the Iraqi section for a long time, sill have no issue with the kurds themselves, but the whole independence talk doesn't make much moral sense now when bringing the Assyrians and their rights into the equation.
    Dad's Azeri. I don't take part in these retarded conflicts, I believe both groups should live together in a civil manner (probably asking too much).

    There's no such thing as "Turkish land." It's just land. Just because turks happen to be above today, doesn't matter. 100 million years ago it was dinosaur land.

    I think parts of proposed kurdistan should be almost fully autonomous from the government in Ankara. Like two states within a state.
    Last edited by Сталкер; 2015-08-25 at 08:59.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Сталкер View Post
    Dad's Azeri. I don't take part in these retarded conflicts, I believe both groups should live together in a civil manner (probably asking too much).

    There's no such thing as "Turkish land." It's just land. Just because turks happen to be above today, doesn't matter. 100 million years ago it was dinosaur land.

    I think parts of proposed kurdistan should be almost fully autonomous from the government in Ankara.
    Fair enough, and if only the world was as civilized as you hope it could be. Then surely Iran wouldn't be a hell hole and both kurds and Assyrians will be living in peace within their own recognized states/nations. Civilized unfortunately wont exist between kurds and Turks or even humans as a whole for example, because of the very reason that is land. Isn't the whole reason why the Turkish government have beef with the kurds because of how they have deemed that part of turkey to be rightfully theirs? they want that part for themselves, and the Turks have a right to say no. Anyway maybe the best thing that I can see here which gives resolution to both Assyrians and kurds in a fair manner is to maybe combine and make one nation/state using the Iraqi land, then maybe after that's achieved then split that part up into two halves or something.Neither will budge on their stance and hand it over to the other but it seems the kurds are pushing more for it by the looks of it, and will most likely end up getting it out of the two. But in order for it to stay civilized and not end up in further mass murdering of either group both kurds and Assyrians must reach a common ground, otherwise one will gain independence and the other will be left out and a whole other cycle of animosity between the two will begin again.

    But if there's one thing I can take from this thread that doesn't seem to be disputed, its that the kurds are indeed living in Assyrian land (Iraq). Something which I have only just begun to delve into and dissect from different aspects. Because the common notion that I have had is that kurds had always seemed like the victims of a mass attack of sorts, they still have a peaceful image in my eyes. But the fact that there is more to them then simply being in the wrong place at the wrong times to make up the victims count makes it quite intriguing.
    Last edited by ancestryfan1994; 2015-08-25 at 09:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Сталкер View Post
    Nizami was half Kurdish!?!?!?!

    Btw, the old iranian language spoken in Azerbaijan prior to Azeri turkish, was adhari, which is also nestled with Kurdish in the northwestern iranian family.
    This only needs a short reply.

    He wrote exclusively in Persian, his father's origins are unclear, his mother was Kurdish, and he was raised by his uncle (mother's side).

    From Wiki: "Nezami was orphaned[3][17] early and was raised by his maternal uncle Khwaja Umar who took responsibility for him and afforded him an excellent education. His mother, named Ra'isa, was of Kurdish[3][11][18] background. His father, whose name was Yusuf is mentioned once by Nezami in his poetry.[3] In the same verse, Nezami mentions his grandfather's name as Zakki. In part of the same verse,[19] some have taken the word Mu'ayyad as a title for Zakki[4] while others have interpreted it as the name of his great grandfather. Some sources have stated that his father might be possibly from Qom.[3][18] Nezami is variously mentioned as a Persian and/or Iranian.[5][20][21]"

    There's this article in which, although very extensive and well researched, the author might have gone a bit too far in proving Nizami was Iranic and not Azeri (+200 p.). Apparently it's a sensitive subject? It's interesting nonetheless, since he also covers some of the Soviet Union's policies regarding revisionist Azeri history.

    http://persianpoetry.arizona.edu/sit...%20Ganjavi.pdf

    If my mother, Ra’isa the Kurd کرد رئیسهی من مادر گر
    Like most Mothers, left this world before me مرد من پیش صفتانه ما

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