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Thread: Prophet Muhammad's Y-DNA haplogroup?1491 days old

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    Default Prophet Muhammad's Y-DNA haplogroup?

    Does anyone have more information on this?

    Mohammed, Hashemites, probably related Y-DNA

    Arab DNA forums and DNA Project admins reported that two test results of members of the Jordanian royal family (private kits) are positive for L859. The possible Y-DNA ancestor is Abdul Muttalib (497-578), the grandfather of Islamic prophet Muhammad (570-632). The haplogroup J1-P58-L147.1-L858-L859 can be observed in other members of Hashemites clan, founded by the great-grandfather of Muhammad and also within the larger paternal Quraish tribe. No descendant by classical genealogy (Hashemite, Sharif, Abbasid) of Abdul Muttalib has published positive testing for L859.
    http://www.isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_famo..._related_Y-DNA

    DNA could illuminate Islam's lineage
    Rasha Elass
    June 19, 2009

    For almost 1,600 years, the title Sharif, Sayyed, or Habib has been bestowed on Muslims who have been able to trace their roots back to the Prophet Mohammed through intricate family trees, oral histories and genealogical records. But now an American DNA lab says it may have identified the DNA signature of descendants of the Prophet Mohammed, and perhaps the prospect of a direct, more accurate means of confirming or identifying such a connection.

    Family Tree DNA, a genealogy and genetics-testing company in Houston, Texas, says it made the discovery after several clients, reputed by oral family histories and some supporting documentation to be descended from the Prophet Mohammed, asked to have their paternal DNA sequences mapped. "With these various samples, we were able to identify an overlapping signature in their DNA, a common thread for all of them, which is their genetic lineage from the Prophet, if their oral tradition is accurate," said Bennett Greenspan, chief executive of Family Tree DNA, which is said to have amassed one of the largest DNA databases in the world.

    The company declined to identify any of the men on the grounds of client privacy, but Mr Greenspan said "several samples came from men in different parts of the Arab world". Genetic testing can trace the maternal or paternal line by mapping the DNA in the sex chromosome passed on by parents. The father passes on the Y chromosome to his son and the mother her X chromosome, so only male descendants can trace both their patriarchal and matriarchal lineage. Female descendants, possessing two X chromosomes, can test only their matriarchal lineage, also known as mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA.

    In recent years there have been many projects attempting to identify the DNA signatures of famous people, tribes and populations that inhabit specific regions - sometimes with surprising results. In 2003 a group of international geneticists found that eight per cent of men in what used to be the Mongolian Empire were descended from Genghis Khan. According to a ground-breaking paper in The American Journal of Human Genetics in 2003, this meant there were no fewer than 16 million descendants of the 12th-century ruler living today.

    The DNA signature of Marie Antoinette is also said to have been determined, meaning anyone suspecting a genetic link to the former queen of France can confirm their royal roots by testing their mtDNA. Such analysis can create controversy. When the DNA signature of Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States, was isolated, it appeared to give credence to the theory that Jefferson, revered as one of the America's founding fathers, had fathered a child with his slave, Sally Hemmings.

    But it could not be confirmed beyond a doubt because although Eston Hemmings, the child of the slave, shared the same Y chromosomal DNA as Jefferson, he could have been the offspring of any of Jefferson's male relatives living in Virginia at the time. The Prophet Mohammed had no surviving sons but his daughter Fatima married her paternal second cousin, Ali, producing two grandsons: Hassan and Hussein. Both have a traceable line of male descendants.

    Because Ali and the Prophet Mohammed share the same grandfather, their paternal DNA is identical. Descendants can confirm their lineage when they reflect similar patterns. Most Islamic scholars agree there is nothing objectionable about testing individual DNA - and countries such as the UAE encourage DNA use in criminal forensics - but there are complex rulings when it comes to using DNA in court for establishing lineage.

    According to the Kuwait-based Islamic Organisation for Medical Sciences, a forum where scholars meet regularly to discuss scientific and medical ethics in Islam, the use of DNA is permissible in certain cases. "A mechanism called qiyafah, similar to an expert witness, existed at the time of the Prophet," said Sheikh Musa Furber, a scholar in Islamic law at the Abu Dhabi-based Tabah Foundation. "The Prophet would send the people to an expert who can look at overall physical resemblance to deduce who might be the father. Today, instead of qiyafah, we should consider DNA testing."

    But Islamic courts do not accept DNA evidence in establishing the paternity of a child born in wedlock, as the law typically considers the mother's husband to be the father, assuming she was not pregnant when married. There is another issue that arises in the Islamic tradition when using DNA to establish lineage: "Lineage, or nasab, in Islamic law assumes lawful intercourse," Sheikh Musa said. "But since a DNA test cannot prove lawful intercourse, it cannot stand as proof of lineage from a legal perspective."

    There are a few privately funded lineage projects in the region, such as the Arab DNA Project and the Arab J1e Y-DNA Project. The former is an online public forum with chat rooms and shared information for Arab men and women interested in their genetic lineage. The J1e project, accessible through the website of Family Tree DNA (at www.familytreedna.com) is more specialised. It is a forum for men whose Y chromosome belongs to the J1e haplogroup, a genetic grouping of Semitic tribes.

    J1e is the genetic signature of the Hashemites, a clan to which the Prophet Mohammed belonged. The current King of Jordan, Abdullah II, is a Hashemite descendant, and one of the better-known living descendants of the Prophet Mohammed. Just how many will test their own DNA to find a link remains to be seen, officials say. "When it comes to the Prophet, I'd rather live in doubt than receive certainty that I'm not related to him," said Sheikh Furber.
    http://www.thenational.ae/news/uae-n...-lineage#page1
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    The Quraysh & Bani-Hashem (FGC8712+, L859+, FGC10500+, DYS485=14) project:
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...d/default.aspx

    This project intends to track down individuals, and their Y-DNA kits, who tested positive for FGC8712, L859, FGC8703, FGC10500, CTS8308, FGC8702, FGC9581, and/or L615 markers.

    It is believed that:
    * L859+ individuals are descendants of Quraysh
    * FGC8703+ individuals are descendants of Hashem
    * FGC10500+ individuals are descendants of Imam Ali (AS)

    Below is the most updated phylogenetic tree of the Quraysh (& FGC8712) Project:
    http://www.qur.co/vb/filedata/fetch?id=1398

    Hashem tribe emerged in west Arabia (Hijaz) and migrated to the south (Yemen) or to the north east (Levant and Mesopotamia). Sayeds & Sahrifs with well known lines of succession tested positive for L859 and FGC10500 markers. Here is the historical and geographical distribution of current FGC8712+, Quarshi, Hashemi, and Alawite kits:
    http://www.qur.co/vb/filedata/fetch?id=1252

    A Y-STR model of Imam Ali bin abi-Taleb (AS) was generated based on the 54 available Alawite kits:
    http://www.qur.co/vb/filedata/fetch?id=851

    FGC8712 and its downstream SNPs are defined as a branch of the greater J1 phylogenetic tree (characterized by the M267 SNP-marker):
    http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree

    Prophets Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismael (Ishmael), Isacc, and Haroon (Aaron) are considered major forefathers in the J1 phylogenetic tree.

    The age of FGC8712 subclade is believed to be ~3300-3800 yBP (years before present). Individuals who tested positive for this marker (FGC8712) are welcome to join the Quraysh project.

    To browse SNPs and their positions on the Y DNA, please use the ISOGG YBrowse Tool:
    http://ybrowse.org/gb2/gbrowse/chrY/?
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    Given the frequency of J1-P58+ in the Arabian peninsula, in all likelihood, Muhammed was J1-P58+. What subclade(s) of P58+ is a bit more tricky though. But this shouldn't come as a surprise that Muhammed was P58+, the more interesting question is if Jesus was, although if he didn't have a biological father, technically speaking, Jesus shouldn't have had any Y-DNA

    Thread title change:

    The y DNA haplogroup of the Prophet ---> Prophet Muhammad's Y-DNA haplogroup?

    //mod
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2015-09-22 at 21:16.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
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    The most common CMH (Cohen Modal Haplotype) is also J1-P58+. I wonder how one lineage is related to the other.

    "Based on the DNA of today’s Kohanim, the geneticists have dated their “Most Common Recent Ancestor” to 106 generations ago, approximately 3,300 years before the present. This is in agreement with the Torah’s written and oral tradition of the lifetime of Aaron, the original High Priest and founder of the Kohen lineage. Further genetic studies have found that the CMH-the Cohen Modal Haplotype is not exclusive to Kohanim, and not unique to Jews. It is also found in significant percentages among other Middle Eastern populations, and to a lesser extent, among southern Mediterranean groups. A haplotype is a group of distinct DNA markers——neutral nucleotide mutations, which when found together indicate a lineage. These particular markers were discovered on the Y-Chromosome, which is passed from father to son, without change, thus establishing a paternal lineage pattern. All of the above is scientific fact, which has only become known in recent years. Using these findings as a basis, perhaps we can speculate and consider some implications of the findings. If the CMH is the genetic signature of Aaron, the father of the Kohanim, it must also have been the genetic signature of Aaron’s father, Amram, and that of his father, Kehat, and of his father, Levi. Levi’s father was Jacob who also must have had the CMH as his Y-Chromosome genetic signature, as did his father, Isaac. Thus we arrive at Abraham. Abraham was only seven generations removed from Aaron, a matter of a few hundred years. Genetic signatures change slightly only over many generations. Thus, it is very reasonable to assume that the CMH, the most common haplotype among Jewish males, is therefore also the genetic signature of the Patriarch Abraham. This would explain why we also find the CMH in high numbers among Arabs and other Middle Easterners today. These peoples traditionally claim to be the progeny of Abraham through his son Ishmael, who would also have to be carrying Abraham’’s male genetic signature. The Jewish Kohanim have maintained the Abrahamic lineage to the highest degree among the Jewish People
    http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...raham-lineage/
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

    ...the more interesting question is if Jesus was, although if he didn't have a biological father, technically speaking, Jesus shouldn't have had any Y-DNA

    //mod[/b]
    If you follow your reasoning to its conclusion...since Jesus had all the physical characteristics of a male, then he had to have had Y-DNA. But if his father was God Almighty as he claimed, then methinks his Y-DNA would have been identical to Adam, whom the Good Book claims was also fathered by God. Technically, Adam and Jesus would have been paternal half-brothers and their identical Y-DNA would be ancestral to all the others.
    Last edited by Ebersdorf; 2015-09-24 at 19:34. Reason: misspelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ubirajara View Post
    The most common CMH (Cohen Modal Haplotype) is also J1-P58+. I wonder how one lineage is related to the other.


    http://www.simpletoremember.com/arti...raham-lineage/
    J1-L859 (the Hashemite branch) and J1-Z18271 (the Kohen branch) are quite distantly related, since their common ancestor is J1-YSC234 itself (in other words, their common ancestor lived some 6000 years ago). In fact, that's a bit like comparing R1b-DF13 to R1b-L584 (a subclade of Z2103).


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Given the frequency of J1-P58+ in the Arabian peninsula, in all likelihood, Muhammed was J1-P58+. What subclade(s) of P58+ is a bit more tricky though. But this shouldn't come as a surprise that Muhammed was P58+, the more interesting question is if Jesus was, although if he didn't have a biological father, technically speaking, Jesus shouldn't have had any Y-DNA

    Thread title change:

    The y DNA haplogroup of the Prophet ---> Prophet Muhammad's Y-DNA haplogroup?

    //mod
    Jesus was haplogroup Y-HWH

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    J1-L859 (the Hashemite branch) and J1-Z18271 (the Kohen branch) are quite distantly related, since their common ancestor is J1-YSC234 itself (in other words, their common ancestor lived some 6000 years ago). In fact, that's a bit like comparing R1b-DF13 to R1b-L584 (a subclade of Z2103).
    This is in line with the Ciaroni 2009 paper, which estimated based on J1-P58+, a split between the proto-Arabs and other Semites, between 5,000 to 10,000 years. So proto-Arabic is 6,000 years old then?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Those who are J-FGC8703+ tend only to be Hashemites while those who descend from Ali (Muhammad's paternal cousin) are FGC10500+

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    So Muslims are ethnoreligious and these guys are the Jews among Muslims?

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