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Thread: Predynastic Egyptian mummy Gebelein man B1376 days old

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    Default Predynastic Egyptian mummy Gebelein man B

    I've first heard of the Gebelein man B mummy earlier this year and was surprised by it's cranial morphology given it's dating of 3400 BC. The skull scan looks perfectly like a modern Caucasoid skull. Reading the wiki entry it turns out that Gebelein man had red hair and that his nickname is Ginger. As one can see from the picture of his head below, his hair texture is wavy, West-Eurasian like.

    So given his appearance, it's obvious that he or at least his ancestors must have come from pretty far north.
    The questions arises of how Gebelein man fits into the picture of predynastic Egypt given his physical appearance. Discuss.

    Info about the site:
    The Gebelein predynastic mummies are six naturally mummified bodies, dating to approximately 3400 BC from the Late Predynastic period of Egypt, and were the first complete pre-dynastic bodies to be discovered. The well-preserved bodies were excavated at the end of the nineteenth century by Wallis Budge, the British Museum Keeper for Egyptology, from shallow sand graves near Gebelein (modern name Naga el-Gherira[2]) in the Egyptian desert.
    About the circumstances of his death:
    (Gebelein Man) had probably been murdered. A CAT scan of the mummified body taken at the Cromwell Hospital in London showed that Gebelein Man had been aged about 18 to 20 at the time of his death and had been well muscled. Under his left shoulder blade the scan revealed a puncture to the body; the murder weapon had been used with such force that it had slightly damaged the shoulder blade but had shattered the rib beneath it and penetrated the lung. It was believed that the injury had been caused by a copper blade or flint knife at least 12 cm in length and 2 cm wide. Daniel Antoine, the British Museum's expert on human remains, believes that Gebelein Man had been taken by surprise by the attack as there were no defense wounds.
    source: Wikipedia: Gebelein predynastic mummies

    Skull CAT scan:


    High-res photo showing his hair:

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    Bout time someone tested their autosomal DNA, it's 2015.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ether View Post
    Bout time someone tested their autosomal DNA, it's 2015.
    More ancient DNA would be welcome. We already have some autosomal DNA of Ancient Egyptian mummies in those 2 studies (18th and 20th dynasty):
    http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article....ticleid=185393
    http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e8268

    In the BMJ study Ramses III was determined to be E1b1a. Combined together it makes 9 Ancient Egyptian specimen (Thuya, Yuya, KV35EL, Amenhotep III, KV55, KV35YL, King Tut, Ramass III and The Screaming Mummy)

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    Ramesses III was probably E-M35. The DYS 390 = 21 allele is found in North African E-M35 lineages, but not European M35, which is why the predictor gave a (probably inaccurate) E-M2 result.

    Besides, E-M2 is largely absent in Sudan, so that wouldn't make any sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    Ramesses III was probably E-M35. The DYS 390 = 21 allele is found in North African E-M35 lineages, but not European M35, which is why the predictor gave a (probably inaccurate) E-M2 result.

    Besides, E-M2 is largely absent in Sudan, so that wouldn't make any sense.
    E-M2 is not absent in Sudan but it is rare. It is also more prevalent in modern Egypt than in Sudan. I don't care one way or another. All E-P2 populations are closely related especially when you remove their recent Eurasian component (see African Genome Variation project using full genome):

    Although Africa is the most genetically diverse region in the world,
    we provide evidence for relatively modest differentiation among populations
    representing the major sub-populations in SSA, consistent with
    recent population movement and expansion across the region beginning
    around 5,000 years ago—the Bantu expansion

    [...]

    In contrast, overall differentiation among African populations was modest (maximum masked Fst = 0.19) (Supplementary Fig. 4) and only 56/1,237 sites remained in the tail distribution after masking (Supplementary Methods, Supplementary Table 6). This suggests that a large proportion of differentiation observed among African populations could be due to Eurasian admixture, rather than adaptation to selective forces (Supplementary Note 6).
    It kind of make more sense using our genetic knowledge of modern populations that Ramses III would be E1b1b. Since this haplogroup is widespread in modern North-Eastern Africa around modern Egypt. But again, 5000 years ago is a long time ago and many population changes and movements occurred. It's just strange that DNA Tribes found the autosomal STR of Ramses III (as well as the other mummies) to be most prevalent in regions where E1b1a is more prevalent. Coincidence? I doubt it. Maybe they got it wrong, but it's hard to believe. They basically simply found the autosomal STR of Ramses III to be more prevalent in certain regions more than others and gave this proportion a number (the MLI scores). I still expect Ancient Egyptians to be closely related to East Africans (and other Africans) when you remove their Eurasian admixtures from the last 3000 years. Ancient Egyptians, by simple geographic logic, even at their foundation probably had some Eurasian admixture but not to a high level, with more Eurasian admixtures coming along the years through migrations and foreign invasion (Hyksos/Aamu).
    Last edited by ep2; 2015-10-12 at 21:44.

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    Y'all try entire too hard to deceive folks about our history.



    From the angle of the facial flatness, we all know that this phenotype originated with melaninated people (i.e. Ethiopians, Somalis, Dravidians etc) due to whites being genetically recessive. Dying the hair was obviously apart of African cosmetic traditions.



    More Info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    Besides, E-M2 is largely absent in Sudan, so that wouldn't make any sense.
    But why are you so sure? E-M2 is not too uncommon in modern North Africa. I mean in some places it shows up at a rate of 7%. A sample of Siwa Berbers (don't know the size) had 6.5% E-M2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally up View Post
    Y'all try entire too hard to deceive folks about our history.
    Are you Egyptian? Probably not, then it's not your history.


    Quote Originally Posted by FinallyDeRico View Post
    But why are you so sure? E-M2 is not too uncommon in modern North Africa. I mean in some places it shows up at a rate of 7%. A sample of Siwa Berbers (don't know the size) had 6.5% E-M2.
    The Siwa sample is an anomaly for now because its genetic profile is very unlike Berbers/NW Africans. Based on paternal lineages it's also an anomaly in the whole North Africa because of the very high R1b-V88, B... and moderate E-M2 haplogroups.*
    Some E-M2 might be native to North Africa but when other typical Subsaharan haplogroups are present in high proportion in the same population, it's a hint it's not native. That's what we find in the recent study on Algeria, with the "Zenata" population having 23% E-M2 but also 65% mtdna L; autosomally, this population is highly heterogeneous and clearly an outlier.

    Also, I don't know Siwa very well but from what I've seen, it looks like the population is heterogeneous based on how they look.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lol_Race View Post
    Ramesses III was probably E-M35. The DYS 390 = 21 allele is found in North African E-M35 lineages, but not European M35, which is why the predictor gave a (probably inaccurate) E-M2 result.

    Besides, E-M2 is largely absent in Sudan, so that wouldn't make any sense.
    If MOTA's terminal SNP was E1b1a would it increase the likelihood that this one would be.? If a future sample or samples have E1b1a will you still hold this position? In a scenario where Omotic type people spread some proto or pre proto AA northward would it be likely that northern lineages may be a remnant of "Omotic" diversity hence a "weird" M329 sitting out there?

    IMO, what I think we will find is arguing the lineage is M35 is like arguing ancient European samples really are haplogroup R1b and not G2. The Neolithic signature of "Farmers From the Middle East" is associated with Y-dna and even an autosome NOT FOUND in great frequency in Europe NOR the Middle East when using MODERN samples as a measure.

    There are tons of reasons were a lineage can exist in Egypt but not Sudan. Even other cases with Sub Saharan ones like E2, E1a, V6 and E*). As far as science and genetics, the first time you are on to something is when it doesn't make sense. I think at the very least people should find a scenario that fits with the evidence, not look for alternatives.

    Edited...
    Last edited by beyoku; 2015-10-16 at 14:12.

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    I haven't found much on Siwa mtDNA, but an old Dienekes post refers to a study showing high M1 and a presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. How connected are these to E-M2? The people of Siwa are said to be endogamous, but I've also taken notice of their heterogeneous looking population.

    Okay I found the study he was referring to: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42082352/Berber.pdf - mtDNA really starts around pg.131 or 9
    Last edited by FinallyDeRico; 2015-10-16 at 12:06.

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