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Thread: What do you think of Marxism?1377 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post

    Anyways, I think most of our economic instability is due to Murray Rothbard in combination with growing neoliberalism.
    Nothing is stable in this world, absolutely nothing is stable in this world, neither is economy, which goes in cycles, if you don't understand it then I feel sorry for you.

    If we look at the results however and at what the current system has given us then this discussion can close, because well, no other system has ever given anything like we have now. I don't think any hypothetical/not tried yet system can give more.

    "if you want something then go for it, earn it, create it, make money, make progress", its all too perfect.

    you can argue that the system is too perfect, so perfect even that the natural resources will be depleted sooner or later, the beauty of this system however is that it will adapt to anything.


    Acquisitorz is basically a less educated version of Murray Rothbard.
    thanks for the compliment, and I mean it
    Last edited by Acquisitorz; 2015-12-17 at 00:03.

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    neither is economy, which goes in cycles, if you don't understand it then I feel sorry for you.
    Exhaustion of resources of resources can end those cycles. Growth has limits; compound interest doesn't. I've explained this in-depth before.

    Let me repost my main points:

    ""The monetary system we have now is of a predatory nature, one of fiat currency issued as interest-bearing debt, created ex nihilo when banks make loans, or when central banks buy up government bonds to allow the nation to monetize its debt and spend beyond its means. It is a trap. The principle is created, the interest is not. When debts are repaid (or defaulted), real wealth is drained out of the economy. There is always more debt than money. The debt grows continuously—exponentially—through compound interest, enriching the bank, impoverishing the nations and their people. This forces governments to either take more and more extreme actions to service their unserviceable debt, or default and set off a sovereign debt crisis.

    The exponentially growing debt demands an exponentially growing economy to service the debt, and this means exponentially growing demands for resources and energy. We live on a finite planet with hard physical limits. Growth has limits; compound interest doesn't.

    Every fiat currency in the history of ever has collapsed into worthlessness within 50 years because of excessive printing leading to a loss of confidence in its value. The U.S. has managed to forestall the inevitable because we're backing the dollar with OPEC's oil and blowing up any country that wants to stop using it, and there's a very real possibility World War III will be over which banking system's fiat banknotes own the future.""

    Quote Originally Posted by Acquisitorz View Post
    you can argue that the system is too perfect,
    Ever heard of Kurt Godel's Incompleteness Theorem? No system is wholly internally consistent or "perfect".

    Quote Originally Posted by Acquisitorz View Post
    the beauty of this system however is that it will adapt to anything.
    Not really. It won't be able to sustain itself if resources are too low.



    Not everything on the left of that image is important or true but most of it is. There's a lot of other stuff too.

    Here's my old list:

    ""1. Peak oil
    2. Peak phosphorus
    3. Peak water
    4. Climate change making us use even more water
    5. Climate change creating positive feedback loops and releasing even more methane
    6. Ocean acidification
    7. Overfishing helping climate change and ocean acidification with extinction of marine species
    8. plant and animal die-offs (i.e., 75 to 90 percent drops in fish harvests, up to 90 percent of deep sea fishing areas now dead zones, deforestation and damage to coral reefs, amphibian biodiversity die-off which formed massive part of ecosystem, etc)
    9. conflict ("the twentieth century being one of the bloodiest in human history, twentyfold increase in small arms production worldwide, militarization in China, Russia, and other countries, invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, etc., future resource wars"). ""
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2015-12-17 at 00:19.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    There's a lot wrong with Marx, especially his Hegelian interpretation of Historical development. There's a lot to disregard with Marx, but the way he approached constructively criticizing capitalism was very influential.
    Could you give examples of his criticism? Not all of us have read Das Kapital.

    As I see it, based on my general understanding, is that Marxism is basically all about forbidding ownership and hierarchy in business, because you know, ownership is inequality. That's really what Marxism is all about. And it doesn't work that well IRL but it works fine in open source (the GNU GPL is basically Marxism applied on software development).

    Of course Marxism has its roots in Christianity (as does the GNU GPL), in that Marx economic theory was to a large degree based on Jesus-like anti-profit.
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Could you give examples of his criticism? Not all of us have read Das Kapital.
    I prefer the modern Marxist David Harvey. I've listened to his videos a lot in the past back when I was more interested:



    This interview was in 5 May 2010.

    Here's a better summary of David Harvey's key problem for capitalism, 'the capital surplus absorption problem':

    ""Capitalist crisis can erupt and manifest itself in myriad forms. Underlying this, though, is a key problem for capitalism which Harvey terms ‘the capital surplus absorption problem’ (26). The logic of capital is one of perpetual accumulation – capitalists are forced, under pressure of competition, to recapitalise and reinvest in expanding a proportion of the surplus they produce. This requires constant discovery of new profitable outlets for investment so that the surplus can be absorbed and accumulation can continue. Overaccumulation of surplus capital – lack of profitable investment opportunities – lies at the root of capitalism’s crisis tendencies.""

    His books seem good. His recent talk "The 17 Contradictions of Capitalism" is more thorough and better though, but it's 1 hr 30 min long:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AULJlwoI3TI

    I criticized capitalism on the grounds that the ‘the capital surplus absorption problem’ facilitates environmental destruction and exhausts of resource. Read the post above.

    But yeah, man, one needs to know modern economic theorists like Fredrich Hayek, Murray Rothbard, Milton Friedman, and etc. in order to really get David Harvey's criticisms in his books.
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2015-12-18 at 00:00.

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    Whatever becomes privatized, becomes its own industrial complex. The patterns we see in "the military industrial complex" are also evident in the pharmaceutical industry, college business, pet food industry, car & oil industries, and so forth. Furthermore, agencies such as EPA exist solely for the sake of benefiting such industrial complexes, which has bad environmental consequences. Couple this with David Harvey's "capital surplus problem" and the finiteness of resources and you have a big issue.

    ----

    One thing that bothers me about hyper libertarians and most numbskulls on here is how blinded they are to corporate influences and the myriad of problems they cause. One can sit and list problems associated with EPA and other agencies or institutions (e.g., college) that are becoming more and more privatized. On both a group and individual level, neoliberal capitalism tends to encourage viewing animals and nature as disposable.

    For example, look at how Vets receive sponsorships from Purina, who fund their education, to recommend their food to ill pets. Purina is low-quality shit compared to better brands like Orijen or better yet raw food with raw goat milk (look up Pottenger's Cats). They recently sued Blue Buffalo, which is not that great but still better than Purina, due to 'false advertising'. Such duplicity is prevalent on many levels of our infrastructure.

    The medical system also has a lot of big issues with Big Pharma being too quick to prescribe antiobiotics and whatnot. CDC even advised against that.

    Furthermore, consider how smaller businesses tend to have a tougher time in USA due to the way the tax system, and it's hilarious how corporations get a lot of tax breaks.

    Only an idiot would love this clusterfuck of a system which treats everything as disposable for the sake of a fiat currency backed up by nothing.
    Last edited by An Shigao; 2015-12-27 at 22:39.

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    Marx was a Master of Words, who wrote thousand of pages of pure BS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    There's a lot wrong with Marx, especially his Hegelian interpretation of Historical development.
    Could you elaborate and enlighten the philosophically less informed among us here? How exactly was Marx, Hegelian in his line of thinking?

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    There's a lot to disregard with Marx, but the way he approached constructively criticizing capitalism was very influential.
    Well there's a lot of wrong with capitalism really, and it's easy to criticize capitalism. Don't get me wrong though: there are good aspects of capitalism, such as respect for private property (which is important), the right to earn a decent living and so on. The left in general, being far more intellectual than the right (which is totally dumbed down anyway), is also to some degree anti-intellectual in that they just don't get it, what exactly is wrong with capitalism, and instead, they do the equality routine and justice moralizing that's so often a common feature in leftist thinking, to the point that it's become a caricature at this point. They go on and on about how unfair it is for some rich guy to have more money than some pauper,* not realizing, that the real problem with capitalism is that basically, it eventually boils down to what I call, profit-corruption. Profit-corruption is very real, and I don't think it has ever been as much denounced as it has in the 2016 US presidential election (mainly by Trump and Sanders).

    If there's money involved, credibility almost always takes a serious beating. Various leftist anti-intellectuals like Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins, write volumes of books about how "religion poisons everything", when in reality, the real problem is money. Money is the real culprit in politics. That's not to say that true Muslims / ISIS aren't motivated by genuine Islam, and yes, that type of religion on steroids is a serious problem, but how did Islam become the problem it is today, if it wasn't for money? Islam was basically defeated in 1683 when Poles and other Europeans crushed the Ottoman Empire at the gates of Vienna, and when European great powers abolished the last caliphate in the beginning of the 20th century, Islam was more or less put into coma. Then something happened: the West (America and others) began buying lots of oil from Muslim countries, and empowered Muslims with the poison we call money, and began selling them lots of sophisticated weapons and other toys.

    Fast forward a couple of decades, and we have a new caliphate in Iraq and Syria. Adding insult to injury, we have modern mainstream politicians (i.e., bullshit artists by any other name) like Obama and Merkel preaching about their lofty "values" and "human rights" and similar political rhetoric they don't even believe in themselves, all at the same time while they're arming ISIS and sponsoring ISIS with millions of dollars. And the Republicans and other right-wing politicians, aren't any better since they're trying to kill us all by poisoning the environment, because in their fixed iGnorance, prioritizing the environment means a compromise on making money, and we can't have that, right? Money is so sacrosanct to mainstream thinkers that they can't even think critically of it, let alone question its use and harm.

    So that's the real problem with capitalism, not that some airhead CEO makes a lot more money than his employees. When you have an economic system that puts money above the collective survival of us all (and every other species on the planet for that matter), then that economic system must be abolished and replaced with something better, and more sane.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Here's Chomsky's opinion on Marx in short: "Marx had a great deal of importance to say about social and political issues, and about the economy, considering mostly an abstract model of 19th century capitalism which still provides much useful insight. He didn’t actually have a plan. He said very little about the nature of a post-capitalist society other than how to obtain it." (source: http://www.revleft.com/vb/finally-go...39/index.html?
    The problem with Marxism and its critique of capitalism, is that Marxist school of thought is outdated at this point. In the 19th century, they didn't have the environmental problems we have now. Back then, there were plenty of tigers and dolphins, elephants, chimpanzees, gorillas, lions and so on, around. They didn't have a huge fucking hole in the ozone layer either. So naturally, Marx and other leftists of his day, were all like, "it's unfair that this guy makes more money than that guy!" rather than diving deeper into the real problems of capitalism and its many, many weaknesses.

    I brought up the GNU GPL software license earlier, and that's another example of typical Jewish leftist mentality. Eric S. Raymond (another open source software advocate, although he's a gentile), described Richard Stallman's free software rhetoric/advocacy, as Marxist ("RMS" is Stallman's initials). Raymond is the same libertarian/capitalist guy who in the documentary "Revolution OS" (a documentary about Linux), angrily denied that Linux is communism (which it is, because it's published under the GPL). But ESR knows better than that:

    In 1983 Stallman founded the GNU project, aimed at writing an entire free operating system. Though Stallman was not and had never been a Unix programmer, under post-1980 conditions implementing a Unix-like operating system became the obvious strategy to pursue. Most of RMS's early contributors were old-time ARPANET hackers newly decanted into Unix-land, in whom the ethos of code-sharing ran rather stronger than it did among those with a more Unix-centered background.

    In 1985, RMS published the GNU Manifesto. In it he consciously created an ideology out of the values of the pre-1980 ARPANET hackers — complete with a novel ethico-political claim, a self-contained and characteristic discourse, and an activist plan for change. RMS aimed to knit the diffuse post-1980 community of hackers into a coherent social machine for achieving a single revolutionary purpose. His behavior and rhetoric half-consciously echoed Karl Marx's attempts to mobilize the industrial proletariat against the alienation of their work.
    Source: http://www.catb.org/esr/writings/tao...l/hackers.html

    The reason I bring up Stallman isn't because he's Jewish and much like Marx, authored a communist software license (which I actually think is the best damn software license btw, let's be clear on that; it's the most hardcore open source license, for sure, and I like that), but because Stallman goes on and on about how immoral, unfair and unethical proprietary software is, instead of being logical rather than emotional, and just telling it like it is: open source software is technically superior to proprietary software. And that's frankly the only valid reason to use FOSS over proprietary software.

    It's the same story with Marxists and other communists: "capitalism is unfair!", they say, instead of pointing out the superior alternatives, like industrial hemp which would regulate capitalism to the point that it wouldn't only be fair and square, but also superior for the environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Anyways, I think most of our economic instability is due to Murray Rothbard in combination with growing neoliberalism.
    Elaborate?

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Acquisitorz is basically a less educated version of Murray Rothbard.
    lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Anyways, this is when I become less informed. I just know about it due to friends. If you want to learn economics well, you have to read figures like Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard, Keynes, and etc.
    Keynes has been on my to read list for years, but I probably will never get down to reading him because economics just isn't a major passion of mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    All I know is a fiat currency is ultimately going to fuck up soon for obvious reasons.
    True, but for entirely different reasons than economic inequality. When money is involved in politics, that's when credibility disappears. How can you trust a political "leader" to do the right thing and actually take responsibility in world affairs, when he's a weak and bribed con artist? Incorruptible and strong leaders can and always do resist the power of the penny.

    *Case in point:

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    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2016-04-25 at 18:28. Reason: clarification
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

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    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    ^ Nothing wrong with capitalism, everything is wrong with communism however.

    Capitalism require mutual agreement. No forcing or hurting others.

    Communism/socialism require coercion. While Communist says profit is theft, they don't consider actual theft to be so.



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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Well there's a lot of wrong with capitalism really, and it's easy to criticize capitalism.
    It's the most moral system we have, not perfect but best so far. It's not easy to criticize it at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Don't get me wrong though: there are good aspects of capitalism, such as respect for private property (which is important), the right to earn a decent living and so on.
    Not only important but it is a key stone. It doesn't say you have a right to earn decently however.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Profit-corruption is very real, and I don't think it has ever been as much denounced as it has in the 2016 US presidential election (mainly by Trump and Sanders).
    Crony capitalism isn't capitalism.
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    The Marxist communist utopia only works in a world of super-abundance where machines do most of the work that people don’t want to do. In such a situation capitalism just ceases to exist. So Marx might be proven right in the long term if technology ever develops to that point.

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