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Thread: R1a-Z93 among priestly castes of Hinduists and Jews.590 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    If you're referring to the Hyksos, you're clearly mistaken since none of these guys had IE names (most of them had NW Semitic names, some were very Canaanite-like Sakir-Har).
    No, I am referring to the Aryans who conquered Canaan in the 17th century B.C. and ruled it for a few successive centuries.

    You can get some info on them in the first article of this book
    Nadav Naʼaman
    Canaan in the 2nd Millennium B.C.E.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Hm...epage&q&f=true

    Although the author is predictably trying to play down their Aryanness.


    These are Canaanite kings with bona fide Aryan names mentioned in the Amarna correspondence:


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    Interesting. Of course if you believe the Bible these people got wiped the fuck out, and that's true of the historical approach too, but I can believe they left a genetic legacy, albeit small. The Mitanni disappear before Israel appears on the historical record, however (about a century's difference), the Israelites spreading from hill-villages to overcome whoever still controlled the cities. However, despite having Indo-European influence, they were mainly Hurrian and also had no real presence in the Southern Levant (although their elite may have been Indo-Aryan), even before their submission to and ultimate conquest by the resurgent Semitics, primarily in the form of Assyrians. I don't see why the Assyrians or Canaanites would have allowed any defeated Mitanni to have retained any positions of importance, and the fact non-Ashkenazi Levites are rarely R1a, I think, backs this up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Hmm anyone know any more details to the "Several components of Hebrew culture and some literary motifs in the Bible seem to derive specifically from the Philistines’ culture."

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    Stop trying to claim my goddamn heritage. Scythians (savage barbaric bastards), Sarmatians, Alani, and probably Parthians most likely resembled the IEs the most, but the Achaeminids and Sassanids look the same as Iranians of today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    I don't see why the Assyrians or Canaanites would have allowed any defeated Mitanni to have retained any positions of importance, and the fact non-Ashkenazi Levites are rarely R1a, I think, backs this up.
    R1a got assmilated into Kohanim and Leviim in the wake of the 2nd Aryan conquest of Canaan, which took place in the 6th century BC. The 2nd Temple in Jerusalem was built on Cyrus' order as a Zoroastrian sanctuary and had Zoroastrian priests who as time passed merged with Judaic priests.

    Interestingly, even the 1st Temple in Jerusalem was built in the place of an Aryan sanctuary dedicated to G-d Varuna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    No, I am referring to the Aryans who conquered Canaan in the 17th century B.C. and ruled it for a few successive centuries.

    You can get some info on them in the first article of this book
    Nadav Naʼaman
    Canaan in the 2nd Millennium B.C.E.
    https://books.google.com/books?id=Hm...epage&q&f=true

    Although the author is predictably trying to play down their Aryanness.


    These are Canaanite kings with bona fide Aryan names mentioned in the Amarna correspondence:

    Your comparison is anachronistic, tovarisch: First you invoke an imaginary Aryan conquest of Canaan which supposedly occurred during the 17th century BCE - a period which corresponds with the advent of the Hyksos - before showing me a map pinpointing Amarna period kings whose names have reliable Indo-Aryan etymologies.

    In fact, Nadav Na'aman contradicts your assertions, here let me cite him:

    "The best-known examples of individuals bearing “northern” names in the Land of Canaan are the rulers mentioned in the Amarna letters. The northern origin of many of these names has been recognized since the beginning on research of the Amarna tablets, and this origina provided the foundation for the well-known hypothesis of the Hyksos invasion and the establishment of their Asiatic empire. It is now clear that the entry of these northern immigrants into Syria and Canaan had nothing to do with the Hyksos (Landsberger 1954:51–61; Alt 1959:72–85; Redford 1970:1–17). Many of the names that appear in the Amarna tablets have been regarded, for many years, as derived from an Indo-Aryan language (O’Callaghan 1948:59–63; Albright 1975:108–109; Hess 1989). By linguistic and cultural analysis, however, it has been demonstrated that there are relatively few Indo-Aryan names in ancient Near Eastern documents and that various names regarded in the past as Indo-Aryan are either Hurrian or of unknown northern origin (Kammenhuber 1968; 1977; Diakonoff 1972; Mayrhofer 1974). There are a few distinct Indo-Aryan linguistic elements among the names of rulers of Canaan in the Amarna Age (Mayrhofer 1966:29–30; 1974:29), but Indo-Aryan groups played no part in the history of Syria and Canaan. Splinter-groups speaking an Indo-Aryan language may have played a certain role in the prehistory of the kingdom of Mitanni, but these were quickly absorbed into the Hurrian-speaking society of northern Mesopotamia (Wilhelm 1982:23–27). In the following discussion, I will not use the term Indo-Aryan and refer instead to “northern” names in general (i.e., Hurrian, Indo-Aryan, etc.), as against the term West Semitic, reserved for group of names derived from the local Canaanite language."

    ^^That's from the very same book you mentioned (which I read ages ago BTW). We've known for a long time now, thanks to the Amarna archives, that a minority of individuals bearing Indo-Aryan names lived in Canaan during the 14th century BCE, it's pretty uncontroversial quite frankly, take what Robert Drews had to say about this in The Coming Of The Greeks (1988):

    "Of the general population of the Levant in the fourteenth century B.C., so far as can be gathered from documents such as legal tablets, some 90 percent had Semitic names, and men with Hurrian or Aryan names are seldom to be found outside the palace or the army. The foreign princes belonged to, or relied upon, groups of men called maryannu in the Akkadian texts. These maryannu constituted a prestigious military class in both the Levant and Mitanni. (The plural "maryannu" attaches a Hurrian suffix to the singular marya, identical to Sanskrit marya, which meant "young warrior.")"

    The presence of individuals bearing Indo-Aryan names is undoubtedly due to the emergence of Mitanni starting from the LBA around the 16th-15th centuries BCE onwards, not some sort of fancy Aryan conquest of Canaan which allegedly occurred during the 17th century BCE. Furthermore, the 17th century BCE is too late to account for an Aryan conquest of Canaan as this timeframe is specifically associated with the first appearance of the Indo-Aryans in the record, for instance let me cite what Elena Kuzminova said in her authoritative book The Origins of the Indo-Iranians (2007):

    "The terminus ante quem of the disintegration of Indo-Iranian unity and the separation of the Indo-Aryans is the 14th century BC. In 1370 BC a treaty between the king of Mitanni, Mattiwaza (old reading Kurtiwaza), and the Hittite king, Suppiluliumas, was concluded and there is an oath guaranteed by a series of gods including such Indo-Aryan divinities as Indra, Mithra, Varua, and Nasatya. In the 14th century BC in the Hittite city of Bogazkoy a trainer from the land of the Mitanni named Kikkuli composed a treatise on horse training where he employed numerous Indo-Aryan terms (Thieme 1960; Mayrhofer 1966; 1974; Kammenhuber 1968). The first time the Indo-Aryans appeared in the Near East dates, however, from the 17th century BC when the Hurrians (non-IE) came from north-east Anatolia and founded the Mitanni kingdom. It was dominated by Indo-Aryans who had brought chariots, blood-horses, and the skills of horse training. The names of Mitanni kings known from documents of the Tel-Amarna archive in Egypt and from the cuneiform texts and seals of the Near East are Indo-Aryan. The Indo-Aryans formed elite charioteer squadrons (Yankovska 1979; 1981; 1987). Judging by the descriptions of their dress and weapons, which included a hood, a bow, and a quiver with shaft-hole arrows (Zaccanini 1978), the Aryans had come to Mitanni from the steppes. None of those features were known in the Near East but had analogues only in the steppes. This is an elite dominance migration pattern: the dominance is secured by the introduction of new chariot battle tactics. The dominant group was presumably small and soon assimilated.

    [...]

    A question still remains open to debate whether the origin of the horse-drawn chariot was in the Near East or in the Volga-Ural region. Chronologically, the priority of the steppes should be recognized, if the radiocarbon dates are accepted. There are battle-cars known in the Near East, but there are still no cheekpieces, no chariots and no authentic images earlier than the 17th century BC (it is interesting that according to the conclusion of paleozoologists W. Herre and M. Röhrs (Bittel 1958), the horses of Osmankayasy had come to Anatolia from the steppes).

    [...]

    Numerous references to chariots and horses in the Near East date from the 15th century BC. They are primarily connected with the Indo-Europeans who had migrated to Mitanni in the 16th–15th centuries BC; their names occur, however, already in Hurrian texts of 17th century BC. Hurrians are non-IE people who inhabited the southern part of the Armenian plateau, northern Mesopotamia and Syria. They were the native population of the kingdom of Mitanni, where the Indo-Aryans established their rule (Herzfeld 1968: 23). The Mitannian Indo-Aryans promoted skills of training and harnessing horses to chariots. This is attested by a 14th century BC Hittite treatise on horse-breeding written by a groom Kikkuli. It contains Indo-Aryan horse-breeding terminology. Additional proofs are offered by the names of kings and a description of chariot squadrons."


    Incidentally, the above makes R1a-F1345 the best Mitannian contender so far since its TMRCA is 3,300 years old according to YFull, considering the fact YFull's TMRCA estimates quite often happen to be underestimations (of ~15% according to some) this puts R1a-F1345 squarely in the Amarna period and in turn correlates with the emergence of Mitanni.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by thetick View Post
    Hmm anyone know any more details to the "Several components of Hebrew culture and some literary motifs in the Bible seem to derive specifically from the Philistines’ culture."
    My guess is that they're referring to the concept of kleos aphthiton (which can be found in the Bible, especially common in the Book of Judges) and a handful of Philistine loanwords in Hebrew.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2016-02-14 at 00:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aeon View Post
    R1a got assmilated into Kohanim and Leviim in the wake of the 2nd Aryan conquest of Canaan, which took place in the 6th century BC. The 2nd Temple in Jerusalem was built on Cyrus' order as a Zoroastrian sanctuary and had Zoroastrian priests who as time passed merged with Judaic priests.

    Interestingly, even the 1st Temple in Jerusalem was built in the place of an Aryan sanctuary dedicated to G-d Varuna.
    There was no second Aryan conquest, the Babylonians of the 6th century BC were Semitic speakers of Assyrian, not Medians. Their upper classes were as Semitic as the Jews, though perhaps their lower classes retained some Sumerian (non-Indo-European) blood, and they probably used some Indo-European auxiliaries. The Medians only later took over Babylon. Please read up on things before you post nonsense.

    Furthermore this displays a high ignorance of the immaculate record-keeping of the Israelites, who recorded all the priestly families and their specific tasks, and did not allow intermixing. It is possible that one or two rapes or affairs occurred, but still, the Israelites of Ezra's era would never have allowed mass assimilation into the upper classes - have you read the Old Testament? Additionally, the Babylonians never settled in Israel, so your point is invalid to begin with. Finally, you're literally making stuff up about Cyrus dedicating the temple to Zoroastrianism - it's a lie. The Temple's history is well-known as a Jewish endeavour, though it was probably originally a Pagan Semitic site.

    Basically, you're making stuff up because you have a hard-on for Indo-Europeans but you have no history of your own to take pride in. It's sad. The supposition Zoroastrians had mixed with Jews is made even more ludicrous by the fact that a) Zoroastrians did not exist (at least in large numbers) in Babylon, and b) Cyrus the Great viewed the Zoroastrians as a political threat and marginalised them, contrary to the lie you just made up about him randomly instructing a temple to be built for them. There is no evidence for a Zoroastrian presence in Israel or the Levant, ever - and in fact there is not even any evidence that he incorporated Israel or the Levant into his empire, although it is probable he did for a short period, making the idea you somehow know he did things in those territories for a group he despised even more ludicrous. At the very earliest, the Temple was not built until around 20 years after his death, anyway, and traditional sources suggest around 250 years. So it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

    TLDR stick to the Steppe, vanilla ice.

    inb4 Bible quotes that don't match up to the historical record but still don't support your point from the Book of Ezra.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thetick View Post
    Hmm anyone know any more details to the "Several components of Hebrew culture and some literary motifs in the Bible seem to derive specifically from the Philistines’ culture."
    The 5th chapter of the book "Philistinian influence on the Bible and Hebrew" contains detailed analysis of archeological and linguistinc data. One example one might give is a character of Samson whom the author regards as importet to the Hebrew myths from the Philistine world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Łukasz-Niesiołowski-Spano
    So it can be considered - I presume - that both Samson like all Danites represented element close to Philistinians, maybe the remnant of Danuna, the tribe which took part - along Philistinians - in the invasion of the Sea Peoples.
    {my translation}

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The most celebrated Danite was Samson. Pnina Galpaz-Feller sees similarities between the story of Samson and Denyen tribal legends.
    (...)
    A minority view first suggested by Yigael Yadin attempted to connect the Denyen with the Tribe of Dan, described as remaining on their ships in the early Song of Deborah, contrary to the mainstream view of Israelite history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by An Shigao View Post
    Stop trying to claim my goddamn heritage. Scythians (savage barbaric bastards), Sarmatians, Alani, and probably Parthians most likely resembled the IEs the most, but the Achaeminids and Sassanids look the same as Iranians of today.
    Him can't resist to read sumsing mind numbing. Like my good Cambodian friend used to say, "him wanna do, him do." Maybe him wanna show him strong to.
    Maybe Alani people wanted to give him some food and help him, who knows?
    Maybe some even converted, how knows ?http://www.chabad.org/library/articl...een-Helena.htm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_of_Adiabene

    Also perhaps learned to have King and fight techniques from Phillistines, skilled working with metal.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6rem2GUidk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longbowman View Post
    There was no second Aryan conquest, the Babylonians of the 6th century BC were Semitic speakers of Assyrian, not Medians. Their upper classes were as Semitic as the Jews, though perhaps their lower classes retained some Sumerian (non-Indo-European) blood, and they probably used some Indo-European auxiliaries. The Medians only later took over Babylon. Please read up on things before you post nonsense.

    Furthermore this displays a high ignorance of the immaculate record-keeping of the Israelites, who recorded all the priestly families and their specific tasks, and did not allow intermixing. It is possible that one or two rapes or affairs occurred, but still, the Israelites of Ezra's era would never have allowed mass assimilation into the upper classes - have you read the Old Testament? Additionally, the Babylonians never settled in Israel, so your point is invalid to begin with. Finally, you're literally making stuff up about Cyrus dedicating the temple to Zoroastrianism - it's a lie. The Temple's history is well-known as a Jewish endeavour, though it was probably originally a Pagan Semitic site.

    Basically, you're making stuff up because you have a hard-on for Indo-Europeans but you have no history of your own to take pride in. It's sad. The supposition Zoroastrians had mixed with Jews is made even more ludicrous by the fact that a) Zoroastrians did not exist (at least in large numbers) in Babylon, and b) Cyrus the Great viewed the Zoroastrians as a political threat and marginalised them, contrary to the lie you just made up about him randomly instructing a temple to be built for them. There is no evidence for a Zoroastrian presence in Israel or the Levant, ever - and in fact there is not even any evidence that he incorporated Israel or the Levant into his empire, although it is probable he did for a short period, making the idea you somehow know he did things in those territories for a group he despised even more ludicrous. At the very earliest, the Temple was not built until around 20 years after his death, anyway, and traditional sources suggest around 250 years. So it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

    TLDR stick to the Steppe, vanilla ice.

    inb4 Bible quotes that don't match up to the historical record but still don't support your point from the Book of Ezra.
    Yes, there was the 2nd Aryan conquest of Canaan. It was done in the late 6th century by Persian Aryans, whereupon the Achaemenid province of Yehud was created, ruled by Aryan Zoroastrian governors.

    That the 2nd Temple of Jerusalem built on Cyrus' order was built as a temple to the Lord (Ahura Mazda) and not to the Jewish tribal god Yhwh, can be seen from the Book of Ezra that you mentioned, which quotes the Aramaic decree of the Aryan Zoroastrian king Artaxerxes:

    'Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven, and so forth... And I, even I Artaxerxes the king, do make a decree to all the treasurers that are beyond the River, that whatsoever Ezra the priest, the scribe of the Law of the God of heaven, shall require of you, it be done with all diligence... Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let it be done exactly for the house of the God of heaven; for why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and his sons?' etc.
    (Ezra 7:12-26)

    "God of Heaven" (Aram. ’elah šəmayya) in the language of the Achaemenid chancellery meant Ahura Mazda (it is only used in the Hebrew Bible when quoting Persian authorities), and His Law is called in the Aramaic text by the Iranic loanword data. Achaemenid authorities regarded the Temple in Jerusalem as Ahura Mazda's sanctuary and dispatched Ezra to the Persian province of Yehud to teach the local population basics of the Zoroastrian monotheism (Law of the God of heaven: data di-’elah šəmayya).

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