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Thread: The origin of Slavs1161 days old

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    Default The origin of Slavs

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    That's the theory, but from what I've seen, the North Slavic cluster was well on the way to forming in the Carpathian Basin and probably nearby areas of East Central Europe when BR2 was alive. I think Slavs will in the end turn out to be a sister clade of the Bronze Age Hungarians we have already.
    The origin of Slavs and Poles is a really fascinating subject.
    When looking at the PCA of global_9dim data for West Eurasia I noticed that there are no populations between Poles and Hungarian Bronze Age cultures Vatya:RISE479 and Hungary_BA:I1502:


    https://www.dropbox.com/s/grk44k156p...l9dim.pdf?dl=0

    This suggests that some populations in Hungary could have taken part in our origin. This is also supported by haplotype-based affinity of other Hungarian Bronze age sample:




    On the other hand we also suspect that Corded Ware Culture contributed something to our origin.
    Assuming that part of our ancestry comes from CWC I wanted to find out about the other part and carried out experiment using nMonte and global 9dim data. I let nMonte calculate affinity for every Polish sample using CWC and all relevant Neolithic and Mesolitic cultures data. I got following results:

    Code:
    _	 Polish_Poland1
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	42,95
    	
    Anatolia_Neolithic:I1096	6,4
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1284	7,2
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1303	10,35
    LBK_EN:I0821	9,05
    Loschbour:Loschbour	12,95
    Motala_HG:I0014	11,1
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland2
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	48,9
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	16,05
    _	
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1284	8,15
    LBK_EN:I0821	11,3
    Loschbour:Loschbour	15,6
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland3
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	49,65
    Corded_Ware_Germany_RISE446	1,05
    _	
    Anatolia_Neolithic:I1096	1,9
    Bichon:Bichon	9,6
    Hungary_EN:I1498	0,55
    Hungary_HG:I1507	4,9
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1284	32,35
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland4
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	24,45
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	19,7
    _	
    Anatolia_Neolithic:I1096	3,85
    Baalberge_MN:I0559	13,45
    Hungary_EN:I1498	14,25
    Loschbour:Loschbour	8,65
    Motala_HG:I0014	15,65
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland5
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	24,95
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	23,5
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	14,3
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	0,15
    Iberia_Mesolithic:I0585	1,05
    LBK_EN:I0821	21,6
    Loschbour:Loschbour	14,45
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland6
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	17,4
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	0,3
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1538	28,85
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	0,1
    Iberia_Mesolithic:I0585	6,8
    Iberia_MN:I0405	0,1
    LBK_EN:I0821	28,45
    Loschbour:Loschbour	18
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland7
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	41,15
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	12,85
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1540	5,65
    	
    Baalberge_MN:I0559	0,75
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	25,55
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1284	0,65
    Loschbour:Loschbour	13,4
    	
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland8
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	37,15
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1534	15,6
    _	
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1314	0,95
    LBK_EN:I0821	25,45
    Loschbour:Loschbour	11,9
    Motala_HG:I0014	8,9
    Motala_HG:I0015	0,05
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland9
    Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00	2,05
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	0,15
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	0,05
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	3
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1538	44,05
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	0,05
    Hungary_EN:I1498	36,25
    Iberia_Mesolithic:I0585	3,9
    Iberia_MN:I0405	0,1
    Loschbour:Loschbour	10,4
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland10
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	52,75
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1538	0,25
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	13,4
    Bichon:Bichon	9,45
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1303	24,15
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland11
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	53,15
    _	
    Anatolia_Neolithic:I1096	1,55
    Bichon:Bichon	10,85
    Hungary_EN:I1498	23,25
    Loschbour:Loschbour	11,2
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland12
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	20,3
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	0,05
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1538	24,15
    _	
    Anatolia_Neolithic:I1096	8,45
    Hungary_EN:I1498	0,5
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1303	16,65
    Iberia_Mesolithic:I0585	0,25
    Iberia_MN:I0405	0,65
    LBK_EN:I0821	8,8
    Loschbour:Loschbour	4,85
    Motala_HG:I0014	15,35
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland13
    Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00	48,9
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	0,15
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	11,4
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	4,85
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1534	11,05
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1538	0,95
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0559	12
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	0,8
    Loschbour:Loschbour	9,9
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland14
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	23,05
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	15,9
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	27,75
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1534	0,7
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0559	8,75
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1314	4,15
    LBK_EN:I0046	9,35
    Loschbour:Loschbour	10,35
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland15
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	51,1
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1534	1,7
    _	
    BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN:I0171	7,6
    Bichon:Bichon	6,5
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1284	13,05
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1303	10,05
    Loschbour:Loschbour	10
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland16
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	43,1
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	11,5
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0559	21,8
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I0581	1,35
    LBK_EN:I0821	6,65
    Loschbour:Loschbour	3,5
    Motala_HG:I0014	12,1
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland17
    Corded_Ware_Estonia_RISE00	3,95
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	32,2
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	22,6
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	16,3
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1284	21,3
    Loschbour:Loschbour	3,5
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland18
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	1,3
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	39,4
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	23,15
    _	
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1281	7,15
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1314	0,25
    LBK_EN:I0046	16,05
    LBK_EN:I0821	0,05
    Loschbour:Loschbour	12,65
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland19
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	42,95
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	10,1
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0106	9,3
    _	
    Bichon:Bichon	0,2
    Hungary_EN:I1498	14,55
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1280	0,2
    Iberia_Chalcolithic:I1284	10,9
    Loschbour:Loschbour	11,8
    	
    	
    _	 Polish_Poland20
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0049	6,7
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I0104	51,65
    Corded_Ware_Germany_I1538	1,5
    _	
    Baalberge_MN:I0559	13,7
    Baalberge_MN:I0560	13,75
    Loschbour:Loschbour	12,7
    Each Polish sample can be represent as a mix of CWC part and Neolithc Farmer-Mesolithic HG mix part. For example Polish:Poland10 will be a mix of PL10_CW and PL10_HF where PL10_CW is a combination of CWC contribution and PL10_HF is a combination of hunter-farmer mix contribution.
    On PCA plot it looks like this:



    On West Eurasian plot it will look like this:



    The artificial population PL_HF looks like a pure mix of Hungarian HG and Hungarian EN/CA populations:



    Looking closer:




    http://postimg.org/gallery/134v0qkm0/


    If the model PL = PL_CW + PL_HF is true this sets many interesting questions about the languages of PL_CW and PL_HF which both probably contributed to our language. And also which cultures contributed to PL_HF. Was it the Dnieper–Donets culture or Tripolye mixed with HG before mixing with steppe or some mixing took place in Poland Eastern TRB or Baden.
    Last edited by EastPole; 2016-04-20 at 00:05.
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    What is your opinion on how proto-Slavic spread over half of Europe overnight in late antiquity?

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    Same is probably true for Balts and Germans too. The CW + EF/HG. Just proportions may differ

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    On West Eurasian plot it will look like this:

    This is off-topic here, but Greeks look like Cypriots "invaded" by the people of the Vatya culture (while Cypriots look like a simple cross between Caucasus hunter-gatherers and Anatolian Neolithic farmers).

    The shift to cremation rather than interment around 1300 BC, gave archaeologists a name for the burgeoning Urnfield culture. The typical Urnfield burial used a urn to contain the ashes of the desceased, capped by an upturned bowl, set into a pit. The usage had spread over much of Europe by 1000 BC.

    Any type of cremation was uncommon earlier over most of Europe except the Carpathian Basin, where it appears among the Makó and Bell Beaker groups as early as c. 2700 to 2400 BC. So this region has often been considered the starting point for the Urnfield tradition. Two of the Middle Bronze Age cultures of Hungary favoured cremation, but only one of them placed a capped burial urn in a pit. That was the Vatya Culture of sheep-breeders living in the settlements along the Danube. These were well-placed for trading, as well as having good grazing land nearby. So the idea could easily have travelled up the Danube to the trading nexus at its head. From there it spread west and north into Germany and Poland and south into Italy. Finally it moved into France and part of Spain. There was also a transition to cremation burial in Scandinavia and the British Isles in the Late Bronze Age, but without the vast cemeteries of Continental Europe.
    "An introduction to Archeometallurgy. Wietenberg, Santana. Ethnogenesis of the Celts, Geto-Dacians and Greco-Thracians."
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-04-20 at 08:01.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintergreen View Post
    What is your opinion on how proto-Slavic spread over half of Europe overnight in late antiquity?
    We came, we saw, we conquered!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wintergreen View Post
    What is your opinion on how proto-Slavic spread over half of Europe overnight in late antiquity?
    They have cut down the Myrkviðr aka Hercynia Silva they had always lived in:

    Slavic Landscapes: Central European Mixed Forests:



    Hercynian Forest

    The name is cited dozens of times in several classical authors, but most of the references are non-definitive, e.g., The Hercynian Forest is Pomponius Mela's silvis ac paludibus invia, "trackless forest and swamps" (Mela, De Chorographia, iii.29), as the author is assuming the reader would know where the forest is. The earliest reference is in Aristotle's (Meteorologica). He refers to the Arkýnia (or Orkýnios) mountains of Europe, but tells us only that, remarkably in his experience, rivers flow north from there.[8]

    During the time of Julius Caesar, this forest blocked the advance of the Roman legions into Germania. His few statements are the most definitive. In De Bello Gallico[9] he says that the forest stretches along the Danube from the territory of the Helvetii (present-day Switzerland) to Dacia (present-day Romania). Its implied northern dimension is nine days' march. Its eastern dimension is indefinitely more than sixty days' march. The concept fascinated him, even the old tales of unicorns (which may have represented reindeer).[10] Caesar's references to moose and aurochs and of elk without joints which leaned against trees to sleep in the endless forests of Germania, were probably later interpolations in his Commentaries.[11] Caesar's name for the forest is the one most used: Hercynia Silva.

    Pliny the Elder, in Natural History, places the eastern regions of the Hercynium jugum, the "Hercynian mountain chain", in Pannonia (present-day Hungary) and Dacia (present-day Romania).[12] He also gives us some dramaticised description[13] of its composition, in which the close proximity of the forest trees causes competitive struggle among them (inter se rixantes). He mentions its gigantic oaks.[14] But even he—if the passage in question is not an interpolated marginal gloss—is subject to the legends of the gloomy forest. He mentions unusual birds, which have feathers that "shine like fires at night". Medieval bestiaries named these birds the Ercinee. The impenetrable nature of the Hercynian Silva hindered the last concerted Roman foray into the forest, by Drusus, during 12..9 BCE: Florus asserts that Drusus invisum atque inaccessum in id tempus Hercynium saltum (Hercynia saltus, the "Hercynian ravine-land") [15] patefecit.[16]

    The isolated modern remnants of the Hercynian Forest identify its flora as a mixed one; Oscar Drude[17] identified its Baltic elements associated with North Alpine flora, and North Atlantic species with circumpolar representatives. Similarly, Edward Gibbon noted the presence of reindeer—pseudo-Caesar's bos cervi figura—and elk—pseudo-Caesar's alces—in the forest.[18] The wild bull which the Romans named the urus was present also, and the European bison and the now-extinct aurochs, Bos primigenius.[19]

    In the Roman sources, the Hercynian Forest was part of ethnographic Germania. There is an indication that this circumstance was fairly recent; that is, Posidonius states that the Boii, who were allegedly Celtic, were once there (as well as in Bohemia which is named for them).

    The last remnant of this ancient forest is the Białowieza Forest in Poland/Belarus:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Białowieża Forest (Belarusian: Белавежская пушча, Biełaviežskaja Pušča; Polish: Puszcza Białowieska Polish pronunciation: [ˈpuʂt͡ʂa ˌbʲawɔˈvʲɛska] ( listen); Russian: Беловежская пуща, Belovezhskaya Pushcha) is one of the last and largest remaining parts of the immense primeval forest that once stretched across the European Plain.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-04-20 at 09:10.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastPole View Post
    I noticed that there are no populations between Poles and Hungarian Bronze Age cultures Vatya:RISE479 and Hungary_BA:I1502
    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Greeks look like Cypriots "invaded" by the people of the Vatya culture
    Maybe "Mycenaeans" from the Zyndram's Hill are involved here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    Another breaking news in polish archeo, it seems we are having "too much" of them recently:

    [LINK]

    (...)
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    On the other hand we also suspect that Corded Ware Culture contributed something to our origin.
    I don't understand why the majority of poles are round headed, round faced, whereas Corded had -like many other Mediterraneans- high, long, and narrow faces and very long and narrow skulls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Noi View Post
    I don't understand why the majority of poles are round headed, round faced, whereas Corded had -like many other Mediterraneans- high, long, and narrow faces and very long and narrow skulls.
    What did the Corded Ware have to do with the Mediterranean? They're almost entirely derived from an Eastern European steppe population.

    Apart from that, you might understand if you realize that your comment is irrelevant, because of brachycephalization and de-brachycephalization. Do you think a Polish teenager with a head like a melon can't be the grandchild of someone with a round head? Well think again,

    But you're probably just being a tard because you're trolling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    But you're probably just being a tard because you're trolling.
    If there is anything that I have learnt over the years to preserve my sanity is that Hanlon's razor is a sufficient filtering tool for all internet discussion.

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