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Thread: The origin of Slavs582 days old

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    East Pole has Belarusian origins. AFAIK, His parents or grand parents came to Poland from Belarus after WWII. He has N1c1 y-dna marker. Genetically , he is similar to me. Typical northern Belarusian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auduid View Post
    Are Uralics not European the same as Basques and Georgians? Indo-European =/= European

    It seemed to me that Latvians and Lithuanians are in one camp (with Prussians), White and Red Russians in another (with Poles).

    On the other hand, Lithuanians are junior Polaks in the same way that Prussians are junior Germans, Hungarians are junior Austrians, Finns are junior Swedes, Estonians are junior Danes and I guess that Latvians are junior Russians, lol.
    Mate! Take a look at physical appearance of Belarusians and Lithuanians. There was a girl from Kaunas on this forum. She said Belarusians and Lithuanians are as twins. We can't see the difference between each other. Look at geographic map where Lithuanians and Belarusians live.

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    Canonical disriminate analysis (CDA) by physical anthropologist from Moscow State University. Large samples from Lithuania, Belarus, Russia, Latvia, Finland, Estonia




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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    If we talk about genetic similarities we only have two basic groups of Slavs - North Slavs and South Slavs. The latter is a Balcano- Slavic mix, hence the split. The only Slavs a bit closer to Germans genetically are Czechs (and Slovaks?). Prussians were mostly Germanized Masurians and old-Prussians. Some Ostsiedlung took obviuosly place, so real Germans also lived in Prussia.
    Most of Prussian Masurians spoke Polish until they have been forced to flee to Germany by Soviets. It was a politically hard nut to crack for Nazis as these Masurians were most loyal NSDAP voters in whole Germany, yet they spoke "untermensch" tongue at homes.

    No, North Slavs are not Slavicised Balts as both groups have their distinct genetic markers and they autosomally differ.
    If North Slavs have no relationship with Balts, then explain what the supposed Balkanization of the Yugoslavs actually amounts to. Albanians are supposed to be Satem, I have read on here, so they must be in good company. It seems more like you're disowning them from the Slavic category, when North Slavs are themselves subject to hybridization, whether in Bohemia or Siberia. You would try to split up the Balto-Slav category, which is from the relationship you say doesn't exist. LOL

    I think it's more important to demarcate Balto-Slavs from Centum Germanic and Celtic, rather than try to make the case that you are "Nordic". You just may be, but in the Satem world, where the Indo-Aryans are "Mediterranid". I think of the apparent Nordicist-Medicist split in the Centum world and notice how no Balto-Slavs fit into this scenario. You are more foreign to Celto-Germans than Greco-Romans. Your Iron Curtain is a real thing.

    - - - Updated - - -

    That's especially illuminating, when, for all the talk of Centum England being caught up in Centum French and Spanish politics over the post-1066 period, that the Centum Swedes got even more lost by immersion in the Satem Polish-Lithuanian and Russian wilderness.
    Last edited by Auduid; 2017-11-01 at 15:51.

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    On the other hand, despite the common Indo-European heritage of Centum Swedes and Satem Polish-Lithuanians and Russians, Sweden has a deeper relationship with Finland, as Austria does with Hungary. France and Hungary each individually connected with Poland-Lithuania, but these were isolated circumstances. Come to think of it, so too was the Swedish relationship with the latter. Centum with Finno-Ugric just don't relate well with Satem.

    Oh wait; the Anglo-Indian relationship... ;P

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    Albanians have much more of R1b than of R1a.

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    Based on: "The Uniparental Genetic Landscape of Modern Slavic Speaking Populations", Sena Karachanak-Yankova et al.

    Sequentially eliminating most diverging outliers - first Tula, then Vladimir, then Pskov&Novgorod etc. - we finally get a group consisting of Czechs, Poles, Croatians and Slovenians. Then Chechs drop out, and then Poles, so in the end we are left with Croatians and Slovenians.

    Is it because the mtDNA pool of Central Europeans is most average hence least divergent? Or there is deeper meaning of this?

    Here is PCA (the center of the spread seems to be around Slovenia):

    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-11-16 at 14:12.

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    Y-chromosome haplogroups:



    Here the method of consequtive eliminating of most divergent outliers gives victory to Belarus North&Belgorod pair:



    On the other hand the center of the spread on the PCA plot seems to be around Kursk:


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    By the way this "method" of sequential elimination of most divergent ourliers applied to the tree based on the mtDNA pools of European population gives bronze medal to Swedes (Saami excluded), and silver-gold to Croatians and Northwest Italians:



    ... while applied to Y-chromosome frequencies gives bronze Ukrainians, and silver-gold to Poles and Ukrainians:





    Probably the reason why Poles/Ukrainians/Belarusians come here as uber-Europeans is the Slavic bias of this dataset (and lack of North-West European populations).
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-11-16 at 14:51.

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    Maybe related to this Slavs'/Poles' autosomal link with Bronze-Age Hungary:

    Quote Originally Posted by Eurogenes
    After a couple of days of messing around with the Lipson et al. dataset, I'm certain that Late Copper Age sample Protoboleraz_LCA I2788 shows significant steppe-related admixture. This is the only sample from Lipson et al. with such an obvious signal of steppe-related input that had enough data to be analyzed individually by me with PCA and D-stats.

    For the time being, amongst the best proxies for this signal appear to be Yamnaya_Samara and Samara_Eneolithic. But it's likely that the real source of the admixture is yet to enter the ancient DNA record, or at least my dataset. When it does, it'll probably be an Eneolithic pastoralist population from the North Pontic steppe.



    One of the most influent economic models of the last decades is the theory of Immanuel
    Wallerstein, which influenced the directions of various scientific fields,2 namely the research
    of Core/Center/Periphery, Periphery/Marginality, Zone/Borderland in relation to the outer
    field force.3
    These relations are especially difficult to detect, if such global inventions and the
    period of such great inventions as the wheel and the wagon is investigated in relation with
    the Baden culture. Scholars of the social sciences record to exceptionally crucial milestones in
    human history, namely the neolithization (resulting the development of cultivation with its
    all consequences), and the formation of the capitalist economy (among various determinant
    features of this complex process shipping, and later railway construction had most relevant
    effects on society, such as colonization, or the growth of global trade).
    Here I would like to argue that possibly the invention of the wheel and the period, in
    which this object was created could be interpreted as another significant point in the life of
    the human civilization, based on the crucial impacts it had, considering in particular the
    prospects of land transport, leading to the quickening up the exchange of knowledge as well
    as long distance market and trade.
    In this case, after Sydney W. Mintz the market can be
    explained not only as a place for exchanging goods and service, but also as the repository of
    social self-adaptation.4
    At the same time, despite all efforts, archaeologist did not succeed to define the exact
    date and location when and where the wheel was invented.
    Cavalli Sforza and Ammermann argue that the yearly expansion of the Neolithic revolution
    was 1 km.5 (Later the pace was calculated by other scholars and by other methods, but
    everybody agreed that this was an extremely rapid process.)
    The expansion speed of the wheel and the wagon drive — in my opinion — might
    have been similar to the distance that a wagon could reach, and this distance was surely
    more than 1 km/day, even if the presumed lack of routes is taken into account. Woodenstave
    roads were built between lakeshore settlements,
    6 and the Moravian earth mounds were
    excavated with wide ramp-entrances,7 thus, most probably Europe should not be seen as a
    roadless wilderness in this period. It is obvious that such exposion-like development cannot
    be surveyed by archaeological methods (radiocarbon dates are also not suitable for this
    purpose, and dendro-dates are not available at every sites) after such a long period in details,
    only at a general level. Thus, these questions will probably be further refined in the next
    decades, but most likely the problem will remain unsolved. Moreover, from this aspect,
    archaeological research is exposed to lucky finds.
    However, improving archaeological methods reveal that greatest developments and
    revolutionary improvements cannot be connected to stabile, flowering cultures, but to other
    seemingly unimportant, not-named mixed populations (“Misch-Kultur”). Usually, the world
    shattering innovations and novelties appear in such dynamic communities which are in
    peripheral or semi-peripheral positions. As it was demonstrated in the second part of this
    study, the Baden culture produced the dense network of connections. This complex was
    continuously changing during the life of the culture, considering both the place, object and
    direction of the communication.
    During its existence the Baden culture produced several internal development phases
    (IA/B: formation, IIA: from Boleráz into Baden), flowering (IB/C: classic Boleráz, IIB/III:
    classic Baden), crises (IIA: from Boleráz to Baden: this process was successful; IV: disastrous
    process, disintegration the Baden complex), and stagnation (retarding of the Boleráz culture
    in the Baden period, retarding Baden parallel with the Early Bronze Age cultures)
    . These
    social and economic processes were accompanied by local expansions and contractions. The
    centrum/periphery situation inside the Baden–complex wandered during the time, as it was
    described in the first part of this paper.
    Parallel among the contemporaneous core cultures of the Continent (North-Central
    Europe: Funnel Beaker culture — a culture having strong megalithic traditions and with
    roots in the Neolithic period; East-Central Europe: Cucuteni-Tripolje — an agricultural
    civilization, which flowered from the Neolithic period; Eastern Europe: Yamnaja culture — a
    herding tribal culture inclined to conquest) the Baden civilization was not able to develop
    such structures neither in space nor in time, to accomplish such continuity and stability.
    Still, its potential for adaption and innovation insured one thousand years of
    existence. This openness and success was the result of the cultural and ethnic diversity. It is a
    fact, demonstrated on the example of the development of capitalism that business comapies
    develop more powerfully, if the political system is not solid behind them (i.e. a strong
    empire).
    HORVÁTH TÜNDE, "The Boleráz, Baden and Kostolac Cultures in the Late Copper Age and Early Bronze Age: theirs chronological and spatial distribution, and intercultural connections"

    On the other hand:

    The earliest finds of wheeled vehicles in northern and central Europe date to 3900-3600 BC. However finds (3400–3300 BC) from the Boleráz sites of Arbon/Bleiche 3 and Bad Buchau/Torwiesen II, linked to pile-dwelling settlements, indicate methods of transport typical for higher altitudes (slides, sleds, etc.). The Boleráz and Baden cultures overlap in the Carpathian Basin between 3300–3000 BC and this period seems to have produced transport models that parallel finds in today’s Austria, Slovakia, Hungary, and other regions. These suggest that generally the Boleráz settlers inside the Carpathian Basin did not know, or use, the wheel in the fullest sense. Cart and wheel forms are indicated only from Grave 177 at Budakalász (2800–2600 BC). The Hungarian Baden finds follow the Danube and to the East there are no certain vehicle remains. It is difficult to tell whether the Boleráz finds are linked to the wider Alpine zone, and the Baden finds are perhaps associated with the mixed-culture sites along the eastern slopes of the Carpathians. The four-wheeled wagon was a development linked to the plains and the Steppes (Cucuteni–Tripolje, Pre-Yamnaja, Yamnaja). The nature of the finds relating to vehicles associated with lake and riverine settlements reveal technical and material features: there is evidence of a high degree of carving, if not decoration, and these communities pointed the way for future skills and developments in wheel and cart/wagon manufacture.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-11-20 at 17:26.

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