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Thread: The origin of Slavs524 days old

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panthalika View Post
    Although I don't have any doubts that certain people will manage to make Germans out of the BR2-rich population (Lusatian culture?), as it's possible that some or even much of the present day R1a came from the North-East.
    I bought myself a copy of Zbigniew Gołąb's book "The Origins of the Slavs: A Linguist's View (Columbus, 1992)" and I am slowly browsing through it in my free time. Very interesting - both Gołąb's ideas and the vievs of other linguists refered by him - albeit difficult for a non-linguist reading.

    One idea found there seems very tempting to me: that differenciation of proto-Balto-Slavs into proto-Balts and proto-Slavs started because of the influence of the Lusatian culture. It seems - if we are to believe the maps below - that Lusatian Culture people carefully avoided the future lands of Balts:







    Before Lusatian Culture we were at the Trzciniec Culture phase descending from epi-Corded Ware cultures:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Trzciniec culture is a Bronze-Age archaeological culture in Eastern Europe (c. 1900 – 1200 BC). It is sometimes associated with the Komarov neighbouring culture, as the Trzciniec-Komarov culture. The Trzciniec culture developed from three Corded-Ware-related cultures: Mierzanowicka, Strzyżowska and Iwieńska. These were succeeded by the Lusatian culture, which developed around Łódź.


    The time seems to fit more or less:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Gray and Atkinson's (2003) application of language-tree divergence analysis supports a genetic relationship between the Baltic and Slavic languages, dating the split of the family to about 1400 BCE.
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    The Lusatian culture existed in the later Bronze Age and early Iron Age (1300 BCE – 500 BCE) in most of today's Poland, parts of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, parts of eastern Germany and parts of Ukraine.
    So I am inclined to belive that at the times of post-Corded Ware Trzciniec-Komarov-Sosnica horizon we probably still had undifferenciated proto-Balto-Slavs autosomally similar to LBA-Sudovia RISE598 sample and the separation of Slavs (associated with the autosomal LBA-Hungary BR2-like influence) begun with the rise of Lusatian Culture.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-09-19 at 09:07.

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  4. #92
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    By the way one of my aims is finding the exact location of As-gard:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Asgard

    In Norse religion, Asgard (Old Norse: Ásgarðr; "Enclosure of the Æsir"[1]) is one of the Nine Worlds and home to the Æsir tribe of gods. It is surrounded by an incomplete wall attributed to a Hrimthurs riding the stallion Svaðilfari, according to Gylfaginning.
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    A gord is a medieval Slavonic fortified wooden settlement, sometimes known as a burgwall after the German term for such sites. Gords were built during the late Bronze and early Iron Ages by the Lusatian culture (c. 1300–500 BCE, and later in the 8th–7th centuries BCE, in what are now Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Slovakia, the Czech Republic, eastern Germany, and India. These settlements were usually founded on strategic sites such as hills, riverbanks, lake islands, or peninsulas.
    Here the reconstruction of a Lusatian Culture gord in Biskupin:







    It is maybe interesting that the kentum looking form "gród/gard/gord" seems to be more productive - at least in Polish - than the satem looking form "żerdź" meaning "pole, rod, perch".

    By the way the very archaic Polish word "żertwa" translates into English "burnt offering". But maybe it originates from "żerdź" "pole, rod, perch" (see here in Polish):





    But maybe there is more benign etymology linking "żerdź" and "żertwa" as the evidence for human sacrifices among Slavs is rather scant:

    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-09-19 at 11:56.

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    lukaszM has produced some cool maps of similarity (based on Eurogenes K36) to ancient samples:

    RISE598:



    BR2:



    So did BR2-like people come from Austria?

    BR2 is dated to "1110–1270 cal BC".

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Finds at Hallstatt extend from about 1200 BC until around 500 BC, and are divided by archaeologists into four phases:

    Hallstatt A-B are part of the Bronze Age Urnfield culture. Phase A saw Villanovan influence. In this period, people were cremated and buried in simple graves. In phase B, tumulus (barrow or kurgan) burial becomes common, and cremation predominates. Little is known about this period in which the typical Celtic elements have not yet distinguished themselves from the earlier Villanova-culture.
    So was BR2 related to early Hallstatt Culture?

    Not long ago I quoted the following:

    (...) from the Illyrians, who had in the Hallstat period a monopoly in iron production in Austria. (...)
    So maybe proto-Slavs = proto-Balto-Slavs+proto-Illyrians?

    Then Celts conquered the original Hallstatt homeland, which became known as Noricum.
    True to its origins, no other Slavic chronicle through that time (through the early 12th century) attempts to describe as much of the Slav past or as much of the Slav geography as the Russian Nestor’s Chronicle.* From it (Laurentian Text as translated and edited by Samuel Hazzard Cross and Olgerd P. Sherbowitz-Wetzor), we find out that the Slavs are the “sons of Japheth… since they are the Noricians, who are identical with Slavs.
    What reminds me of this:

    The word Zermatism is derived from the name of Swiss town of Zermatt, the place from whence the Sarmati, nomadic forefathers of the Poles, advanced into Europe, and then Poland, to found Warsaw. Poland would be one of the elect of the new nations, the few who would stand against a new deluge and threat, maintaining and cherishing the true traditions of mankind.
    Kook Science Research Associates, Stanislav Szukalski: Zermatic"

    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-09-19 at 14:26.

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    ^ It gets more and more interesting:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jassa.org
    First, the story of how the Swabians defeated the Romans (attributed to Velleius Paterculus but not likely written by him) tells of the founding of the city of Augsburg. Augsburg was founded by the Romans after the defeat of not the Suevi but of the Vindelici who are supposed to have been an entirely different tribe. These were, in fact, the same Vindelici who gave their name to Lacus Venetus, that is Bodensee. Augsburg’s Roman name was Augusta Vindelicorum. Thus we have Suevi, VIndelici (or Veneti?) of the River Lech and… Master Kadlubek. This is because the story is in many ways similar to the stories written by Wincenty Kadlubek about how the Poles (or Lechites as he would have it) defeated the Romans (and others). The fact that Augsburg sits in the old Vinde-Licia seem very suggestive. At the very least here there may be an inspiration for Kadlubek who was a travelled man.
    "Ziza or Zizilia"

    Videlici are thought to be Celtic:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Most modern scholars consider the Vindelici to have been Celts, albeit with a heavy mutual influence of their non-Celtic neighbours, the Raeti.
    ... but:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    One classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[3] says on the contrary that the Vindelicians were originally Liburnians – a non-Celtic Indo-European people from the northeastern shores of the Adriatic (modern Croatia).


    Quite accidentaly Liburnia is very closse to the place where I2a1-Dinaric frequency peaks:



    I have found the following opinion on the Liburnians:

    Quote Originally Posted by SimonW
    The Venetic language however probably came from central Europe, presumably from the Danube valley, and was related to the arrival of the Liburnians.
    And here we have Vindelici, Veneti and Liburnians in one sentence:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    A commentary on Virgil's Aeneid by the grammarian Maurus Servius Honoratus (fl. c. AD 400) is said to imply a link between the Veneti and the Vindelici who are related to Liburnians from the Istrian Coast. (However, the reference to the Veneti in Virgil seems to place them in the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" which must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived. This, thus, only implies that the ancient Liburnians may have once encompassed a wide swath of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast before the coming of the Veneti.)
    How does it all relate to I2a1-Dinaric, BR2-like autosomal influence, Baltic Veneti, Slavic Wends and possibly Amber Road:



    ... is anyones guess.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-09-22 at 11:17.

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    There was a Celtic tribe in Armorica based at Vannes, called Veneti. Maybe Venice also has some relation?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Homophones lead to false etymology. Galicia in Portugal vs Galicia in Poland...
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