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Thread: The Armada and the birth of the British Empire1227 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Andullero View Post
    In my humble opinion, the British Empire would have been greater than it was if Elizabeth I would have gotten over her misgivings about taking the Netherlandic Crown when the States General offered her it. By the time Cromwell came forth with his offer (which sounded more like "put yourselves under us OR ELSE") to them it was already too late, having as they had by the time a century and a half under independence and republicanism themselves. And so, the English had to spent a good part of their energies putting down the Netherlanders in four wasteful wars, energies that would have been better spent elsewhere.
    That was a tragedy, considering that a good part of the Dutch and English people share a common ancestry. I also agree that Cromwell ( a bit of a psychopathic twerp, at least according to my family's recollection) would have better spent his energies in a Puritan pulpit, rather than trying to force his brand of Congregationalism down Anglican and Presbyterian throats. The wars against the Netherlands were wasteful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooding View Post
    " Taking care of the poor?" Really? How about being spent by bishops in the pursuit of their own appetites? When those monasteries were abolished ( or transferred to evangelical control), the monies were indeed used to rebuild the Exchequer, but in doing so, great projects were financed, people were employed. It doesn't take away the fact that it was British property to be used by the British in whatever manner they saw fit.
    Generally I am not well versed in the history of the British Isles, but it is hard for me to believe that such unheard of monster or madman (take your pick) as Henry VIII could have been guided by any benevolent intentions.

    It is by the way fascinating that almost at the same time in two peripheral regions of Europe two identical psychopats acquired power:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Henry VIII (28 June 1491 – 28 January 1547) was King of England from 21 April 1509 until his death.
    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Ivan the Terrible (...) was the Grand Prince of Moscow from 1533 to 1547 and 'Tsar of All the Russias' from 1547 until his death in 1584.
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-05-14 at 16:26.

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    Later the British armada triumphed in China by selling drugs and corruption.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

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    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Later the British armada triumphed in China by selling drugs and corruption.
    I suppose blaming the British for all the world's ills is a popular pastime, but they did create the biggest Empire the world has ever seen and they maintained it for quite awhile. The Commonwealth of Nations stands as a testimony to British influence worldwide and apparently it wasn't all bad. 1607 to the present ( under whatever name you like) is a fairly decent track record for any country.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Generally I am not well versed in the history of the British Isles, but it is hard for me to believe that such unheard of monster or madman (take your pick) as Henry VIII could have been guided by any benevolent intentions.

    It is by the way fascinating that at the same time in two peripheral regions of Europe two almost identical psychopats acquired power:
    Monsters and madmen were in abundance in Europe at the time. Pope Leo X was pretty notorious himself for his pursuit of luxury and the Borgia Popes were hardly role models. I know that people are going to blame the British ( for things done by prior governments over a century ago) because it's a cool thing to do and the British tend to be a bit too stiff upper lip for their own good sometimes. Were Russia and Sweden so much more benevolent for Poland and Finland? They succeeded too, for centuries and I hear no word of reproach against either of them.

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    Lest anyone get the idea that I'm just a cheerleader for the British Empire, let me point out that I have several ancestors who were at the wrong end of the musket during Le Grand Derangement ( the Expulsion of the Acadians from Canada) and also forebears who fought for Prince Charles at the Battle of Culloden. Imperial policy concerning who could trade with who and what religions could lawfully do the trading drove more of my ancestors out of Northern Ireland to the American Colonies, where they were promptly shipped to the frontier to serve as a buffer between the more settled coastal towns to the east and the Native American held territory to the west.

    I said elsewhere that I grew up primarily under the influence of my mother's family and I had no great love for the English or their descendants in Diaspora.. but then I spent time with my father's siblings during various family gatherings from my early thirties on and so came to a more balanced view of the British Empire and the people who helped to build it. It took a lot of conversations and independent study for me to get where I am today in my viewpoints.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooding View Post
    I suppose blaming the British for all the world's ills is a popular pastime, but they did create the biggest Empire the world has ever seen and they maintained it for quite awhile.
    Of course I was half serious with my moral indignation about the British Empire, but I think that this paralellism between the British and Russian empires I pointed to invoking Henry VII and Ivan the Terrible is worth considering. Both empires were established in two peripheral regions of Europe by Norsmen mafia imposing their rule on native population: Eastern Slavs and Anglo-Saxons respectively:

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    Rurik or Riurik (Old Church Slavonic: Рюрик, from Rørik; c. 830 – 879) was a legendary Varangian chieftain who gained control of Ladoga in 862, built the Holmgard settlement near Novgorod, and founded the Rurik Dynasty, which ruled Kievan Rus (and later the Grand Duchy of Moscow and Tsardom of Russia) until the 17th century.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1jjiE1CkcU

    Quote Originally Posted by WIKIPEDIA
    William I (Old Norman: Williame I; Old English: Willelm I; c. 1028[1] – 9 September 1087), usually known as William the Conqueror and sometimes William the Bastard,[2][a] was the first Norman King of England, reigning from 1066 until his death in 1087. The descendant of Viking raiders, he had been Duke of Normandy since 1035.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmfPtEWejs8

    Maybe the final destruction of both empires - British and Russian - will be also more or less simultaneous?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2016-05-16 at 09:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gooding View Post
    I suppose blaming the British for all the world's ills is a popular pastime, but they did create the biggest Empire the world has ever seen and they maintained it for quite awhile.
    - - - Updated - - -
    .
    So? Morality and efficiency are not linked.
    METALLURGY CAME FROM ANATOLIA AND THE LEVANT.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda View Post
    Of course I was half serious with my moral indignation about the British Empire, but I think that this paralellism between the British and Russian empires I pointed to invoking Henry VII and Ivan the Terrible is worth considering. Both empires were established in two peripheral regions of Europe by Norsmen mafia imposing their rule on native population: Eastern Slavs and Anglo-Saxons respectively:



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1jjiE1CkcU



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmfPtEWejs8

    Maybe the final destruction of both empires - British and Russian - will be also more or less simultaneous?
    That may very well be, certainly, but as far that their fall goes, there was never an Empire that lasted forever and usually the fall was precipitated by discontent from the working classes from within these Empires, facilitating their fall by invasion from without. I was participating in a thread dealing with race relations in the history of North America and was inspired to start this thread as both a celebration and an exploration of a good part of my own cultural heritage. As my country no longer participates in the British Commonwealth of Nations ( but it is allied to it and shares some history with the Empire that preceded it), its fall may not be so destructive to how the government I pay taxes to runs, though without doubt we would probably run to help " pick up the pieces."

    The Normans certainly were detrimental to Anglo- Saxon life for at least two hundred years after the Conquest, although ( like the Normans in Ireland), they eventually integrated with the original ( in this case Anglo- Saxon) population ( although there are families like the Perkinses and others with Norman roots, like families such as the Goodwins have Anglo- Saxon roots. Functionally, they're English if in England and American if in America).

    If the Russians and British take a fall simultaneously, there would be chaos for a large part of the world and the more stable countries would have to brace themselves for a large influx of newcomers who would want to escape the insanity ravaging their own homelands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by voyager View Post
    So? Morality and efficiency are not linked.
    Perhaps not, but with all the negativity that tends to be associated with British rule ( and there is a lot of negativity associated with that, trust me. My great uncle Miller McDonald rarely mentioned a negative impact on his family without prefacing it with " well, the English, etc." and it could get me - listening quietly at the time- pretty pissed off, too), maybe there were some positives that deserve to be celebrated, even as the depravity should be properly rebuked.

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    The Acadian Deportation:
    https://umaine.edu/canam/publication...-resettlement/
    In song:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQTfMjWa2p0

    The Battle of Culloden and the Cape Fear Highland Settlements:
    http://www.learnnc.org/lp/editions/nchist-colonial/2032
    http://www.queenofscots.co.uk/culloden/cull.html

    The Settlement of Northern Ireland by Scottish Lowlanders and Borders and their subsequent flight to the American Colonies and reassignment to the Appalachian frontier:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts_G7ug7W9c
    http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ulster-scots-2.html
    http://digitalheritage.org/2011/12/t...orth-carolina/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSerjFKVk3c
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHOyYQ0Wm_I
    http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...cots_irish.htm

    I might not look Scots- Irish ( which might be cordially argued by the McDonald side of the family), but I was certainly raised with an Appalachian Scots- Irish point of view. I can't even do a " fake redneck" impression without being scowled at my my mother and given a quick shake of the head. Quickest way in the world to get me to subside.

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    The links aren't bad. Bumping this up for a decent read.

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