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Thread: High Toryism, Conservatism and Liberalism in the Anglo-Saxon World [split] //mod1133 days old

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    Could you please stop discussing other members when it's obviously not the topic?

    /mod
    “And, furthermore, that some people have a sex life and others don’t just because some are more attractive than others. I wanted to acknowledge that if people don’t have a sex life, it’s not for some moral reason, it’s just because they’re ugly. Once you’ve said it, it sounds obvious, but I wanted to say it.” — Michel Houellebecq

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    Right, I promised you a response to this. I will just ignore any of the bullshit from others that this may incur. We can still have an interesting discussion here, and thanks NixYo for trying to ensure that where you have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonRouge View Post
    Canada's nationalism is predominately on the so-called "left". I think as a result of being a neighbour to the US, they were influenced by the 1960s "New Left", which was anti-American. But old right-wingers who grew up before then (like my uncle) are very much anti-American. The Trump campaign in the Us has been like a shot of morphine for these folks I guess Canada is like much of Latin America in that regard, where nationalism moved left. And yeah, Trudeau did the whole "Make Canada great again" and "take back our country" thing. People here felt like they were losing their country, too. I think that is a result everywhere of the financial crisis, and also the War on Terror. But people claim Canada is an outlier, I disagree. He is not as hostile to trade though, nor is he as far left as his father, but protectionism would slow down global recovery, as the rise in protectionism leading up to the Great Depression teaches us.
    In what sense do you see Canada as an outlier? In terms of the rise of left nationalism?

    I think there are a few interesting things to consider when comparing Canada and the U.K. One thing that should be noted is that they both have the same electoral system for the national legislature and because of that, the composition of the lower house for both countries has been relatively similar, I think, in terms of having a pretty much bipartisan system with a smaller, yet still influential third part and a number of seats occupied by separatist parties. There are a few key differences, however, and recent elections have changed things quite dramatically.

    I'll talk mainly from the UK perspective. First thing to consider in a British context is Scottish separatism and the breakdown of the Union. Now separatism has been a thing in Canada for many years but I think the dynamics by which it has developed in both countries is quite different. It now seems more likely than ever that there will be a breakdown of the Union. The Scottish Independence referendum damaged the traditional left, who already had been gradually losing support in Scotland by taking its being a Labour heartland for granted, partially because they were willing to share a platform with Conservatives and this was seen as a betrayal by many in Scotland. Now the referendum ultimately lost but this Labour collapse allowed the Scottish Nationalist Party to refigure itself, and it had already been doing this to some extent, as the principle social Democratic Party in Scotland, attracting both pro-Independence and Unionist voters. This lead to the collapse of Labour in Scotland. Now there was not an immediate shift among these voters towards Independence but I think the widespread popularity of the party, and its insertion into the mainstream political discourse throughout the UK, has normalised the idea of Independence for many voters. This caused problems for Labour, a traditionally Unionist party, many of whose leaders and key figures were Scottish themselves, including the party founders even.

    Now the Conservatives made the most of this by initiating a discourse on English nationalism, which in my opinion, intended to be divisive and provoke further alienation on behalf of Scottish voters. However, they ran a very effective fear campaign and because the Labour Party maintained the illusion that they could win back Scotland, the Tories were able to gain the confidence of worried English voters who felt that their values and autonomy were challenged by a group of self-interested Scot Nats, attempting to break up their beloved UK. Now that produced the 2015 election result where Labour lost countless seats despite putting on some votes, leaving a Tory majority and a Scotland, where virtually every constituency had voted SNP. Now, because the UK has an electoral system which seeks to maintain a two-party system, it is very hard for emergent parties to achieve electoral dominance. The SNP managed to do this on regional lines and so whilst not having much legislative power, have created a huge dilemma for the Labour Party, which will either need to be open to progressive coalitions, or will have to find a way to appease voters fearing separation of the U.K. as well as those who are inclined to independence. I think because of this, it has been impossible for the mainstream Left in the UK to embrace any form of nationalism into its political agenda. It's problematic because a UK nationalist policy focuses too much on unionism, and an English nationalist position has already been adopted by the right, and is too tainted by xenophobia to be acceptable. It would also enrage those across the Scottish border who they still are trying to win over.

    I think there was a similar paradigm with Brexit but I'll leave that for later

    I think we will see the rise of Keynesian economics again since people are seeing now that trickle-down economics is a myth. It's weird that people consider it "left" now, it was historically used by both sides. Really, the use of supply-side economics and Keynesian policies, they're both good, but depend on the situation. Supply-side economics sprung out of the stagflation of the 1970s and 1980s and it was beneficial for jump-starting the economy then, but today's crisis is because of low demand (because income inequality means people cannot buy things) preventing the economy from rebounding, you need to increase demand so a stimulus is needed, call it demand-side economics, I guess.
    I agree with much of this. Trickle-down economics has caused rampant inequality and the mass depression of wages and living standards. It's funny how the IMF, not that long ago, released a report advocating borrowing (the link for which I cannot find ) for investment and financial stimulation as a means of growth in countries such as the UK where the deficit was not so significant that it would be unaffordable or ill-advised to do so, and would pay itself off.

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    I am a Whig Liberal. I lean to nationalism and individualism, not internationalism. Gladstone and Asquith are heroes of the civil service, not Disraeli. Lloyd-George compromised party principles and this destroyed Liberalism. It's all Labour when not Conservative now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Did you watch the clip?

    Of course you agree with their methods, be honest; you're not fooling anyone.

    And you pretending that Antifa is only guilty of destroying public property and street brawls, that's you denying the 100+ millions of deaths leftist ideologies are guilty of.

    No one is arguing that it's the same. No one is defending people like Dylann Roof or Breivik (certainly not me), so it's a straw man argument on your part. There are of course 'white nationalists' who agree with the violence of Breivik/Roof, but I've never defended those asshole murderers.

    So not only are you totally delusional, but you're also intellectually dishonest.

    I'm not aligning myself or identifying with them, never have. When I say leftism is evil, and that Nazism was a leftist ideology, that's me rejecting Nazism, in case your 2 digit IQ failed to connect the dots there. The only significant ideological difference between Communists and Nazis, is that Communists are international socialists, whereas Nazis are national socialists. Aside from that, both are leftists and believe in pretty much the same thing, and leftism is evil. One thing I've never liked about neo-Nazis btw, is that more often than not, they sympathize with and often defend Muslims, and that's the same reason I dislike feminists btw: they both have sympathy for evil, and their sympathy for Muslims, is because both neo-Nazis and feminists, are leftists (no real right-winger would sympathize with Muslims). That's the same reason I have issues with the US government btw: it supports Saudi Arabia. I'm generally not fond of people, organizations or politicians, who support Muslims, regardless of if I agree with other stuff they champion (it's not like I disagree with the US government on everything else, but that I agree with some US policies, doesn't mean I "identify" or "align" with the American government), but supporting Muslims is a big no-no to me personally.
    Right wing thought is old Toryism, in short, as in "God, king and country", as far as I am concerned. Nazism, fascism and communism are just bastard children of the Enlightenment, while liberal democracy is its official child.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Andullero View Post
    Right wing thought is old Toryism, in short, as in "God, king and country", as far as I am concerned. Nazism, fascism and communism are just bastard children of the Enlightenment, while liberal democracy is its official child.
    Lol people here wouldn't like Toryism. Trust me, I am from Eastern Canada where Toryism is still deeply entrenched in the culture and way of life here, and it's also the foundation of Canadian society historically (peace, order, and good government) although it is not represented in federal politics anymore, it's found on a provincial level in some parts... Particularly my province, where it is VERY strong.

    I used to vote Conservative when it adhered to Toryism but I don't anymore because the got taken over by populist buffoons back in 2003 when they merged with a Western populist party in a convention (now unfortunately called) "Unite the Right".
    Last edited by DragonRouge; 2017-08-23 at 22:17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auduid View Post
    I am a Whig Liberal. I lean to nationalism and individualism, not internationalism. Gladstone and Asquith are heroes of the civil service, not Disraeli. Lloyd-George compromised party principles and this destroyed Liberalism. It's all Labour when not Conservative now.
    He closed the pubs in the afternoon and most of Sunday and had the beer watered - most illiberal acts. But then he was teetotal and also Welsh. I had the misfortune of spending the last eight years before retirement working in Wales and I never met any indigene with a trace of classical liberalism in them. Bossy statists to the bone that they are, indeed to goodness (something they believe can be imposed on people by law).
    Quote Originally Posted by mary
    There was no poverty in the Soviet time. It was only in the 80's that it started to happen due to incompetent leadership. People in the Soviet Union lived better than Americans do today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPretan View Post
    He closed the pubs in the afternoon and most of Sunday and had the beer watered - most illiberal acts. But then he was teetotal and also Welsh. I had the misfortune of spending the last eight years before retirement working in Wales and I never met any indigene with a trace of classical liberalism in them. Bossy statists to the bone that they are, indeed to goodness (something they believe can be imposed on people by law).
    What do you think about a Labour-BNP fusion vs Conservatives? In the absence of the Liberals, I would prefer the former to the latter. I'm a Cromwellian/Williamite/Gladstonian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auduid View Post
    What do you think about a Labour-BNP fusion vs Conservatives? In the absence of the Liberals, I would prefer the former to the latter. I'm a Cromwellian/Williamite/Gladstonian.
    Absoutely hideous, all the socialists together and classical liberalism completely expunged from the spectrum which would be reduced to the left-right axis alone. Zero chance of drug legalisation and they'd whop up taxes on drink.
    Quote Originally Posted by mary
    There was no poverty in the Soviet time. It was only in the 80's that it started to happen due to incompetent leadership. People in the Soviet Union lived better than Americans do today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Andullero View Post
    Right wing thought is old Toryism, in short, as in "God, king and country", as far as I am concerned.
    Yeah I guess, although personally, I have a completely different (non-mainstream) definition of what's right and left wing. What you're talking about is the historical, old school right wing ("God, king and country" was the norm in all ancient and traditional socities), but it doesn't really apply anymore since most countries today aren't monarchies, and those who still are, the monarchy has no power, and mainly exists as a symbol or legacy of old culture and traditions.

    Quote Originally Posted by El Andullero View Post
    Nazism, fascism and communism are just bastard children of the Enlightenment, while liberal democracy is its official child.
    This is true.

    By the way, check this out, lol:

    In France, nationalism was originally a left-wing and Republican ideology.[58] After the period of boulangisme and the Dreyfus Affair, nationalism became a trait of the right-wing.[59] Right-wing nationalists sought to define and defend a "true" national identity from elements deemed to be corrupting that identity.[18] Some were supremacists who, in accordance with Social Darwinism, applied the concept of "survival of the fittest" to nations and races.[60] Right-wing nationalism was influenced by romantic nationalism, in which the state derives its political legitimacy from the organic unity of those it governs. This generally includes, the language, race, culture, religion and customs of the nation, all of which were "born" within its culture. Linked with right-wing nationalism is cultural conservatism, which supports the preservation of the heritage of a nation or culture, and often sees deviations from cultural norms as an existential threat.[61][page needed]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-...cs#Nationalism

    So yeah, Nazism was hardcore leftist, for sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPretan View Post
    Absoutely hideous, all the socialists together and classical liberalism completely expunged from the spectrum which would be reduced to the left-right axis alone. Zero chance of drug legalisation and they'd whop up taxes on drink.
    I don't have any problem standing by my family and friends in Durham and the West Riding who are more sensitive to the "working class" than those elsewhere, although it is true that I have links to the peerage as recently as the Windsors and others were established in the time of Cnut but whom lost their place under the Normans. We all used to be farmers and miners until Victoria, when into the textile mill villages we went until the auto industry took it's place in our pockets. Where registration goes, I'm only aware of Liberal voting in the West Riding during the reign of William IV and a geriatric cousin who's a Labour councilor in Durham more presently (he retired some years ago).

    All of my Yank family on the maternal side used to be Whig before Republican. We're all Protestants and both sets of grandparents, my godparents, were in the Anglican Communion. I'm a cultural warrior but irreverent about the establishment and in a country that rejected Cavaliers and Tories long before the Conservatives ran away to found Canada. Call me socialist all you want, but cooperatives and trade unionism (I've never been a union member and even told a representative off when he kept bothering me) including guilds predated Marx by many centuries.

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