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Thread: How can people say that the Dravidians are relatives of Australoids being that they don't have similar haplogroups?1036 days old

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    Default How can people say that the Dravidians are relatives of Australoids being that they don't have similar haplogroups?

    The Dravidians have most haplogroups R, J, H and L (These last three emerged in the Middle East). They are people of middle eastern descent over the northern peoples of Asia. But that because the weather was getting dark.

    I don't understand it.

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    There's some affinity if you look at their autosomal DNA; haplogroups are not really all that relevant, in determining relatedness. If we went by haplogroups, Europeans would be multiple races. Doesn't work that way.

    And no double posting while you're in the moderation period, thanks. It won't be approved faster just because you double post.

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    Honestly The non-West Asian elements of South Asians are actually quite unique in their own right. There is very little-to-no "Australoid" admixture in them (as in Australian Aboringinal-like or Melanesians).

    They are mostly veddiod and paleo- mongoloid in nature.
    K=47 Results
    78.92% African
    • 59.05% West-African
    • 8.36% Central-African_HG
    • 3.32% East-African_HG
    • 2.22% Nilotic
    • 2.11% Omotic(?)
    • 1.78% Sahelian
    • 1.05% South-African_HG
    • 1.03% Kushitic(?)

    11.84% West Eurasian
    • 3.79% North-Sea_Germanic
    • 2.15% East-Euro
    • 1.39% Scando-Germanic
    • 1.26% Paleo-Balkan
    • 0.88% Central-Med
    • 0.54% NW-Indian(?)
    • 0.42% East-Iberian
    • 0.39% Baltic
    • 0.14% West-Med
    • 0.17% North-Iberian
    • 0.02% East-Med

    9.92% Native/Indigenous to Americas
    • 4.59% Meso-Amerind
    • 2.14% Amazonian
    • 2.01% Andean
    • 1.15% North-Amerind
    • 0.02% South-Indian(?)
    • 0.01% Tibetan(?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    There's some affinity if you look at their autosomal DNA; haplogroups are not really all that relevant, in determining relatedness. If we went by haplogroups, Europeans would be multiple races. Doesn't work that way.

    And no double posting while you're in the moderation period, thanks. It won't be approved faster just because you double post.

    //mod
    I did not know who had sent two responses because my internet failed at the time and thought I had not sent.

    In several places the internet tells us which are the mtdna that determine a person's ancestry including've seen documentaries explaining the same.

    Here are several maps that determine the "race" of people around the world before colonization hrough the haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andresasj View Post
    The Dravidians have most haplogroups R, J, H and L (These last three emerged in the Middle East). They are people of middle eastern descent over the northern peoples of Asia. But that because the weather was getting dark.

    I don't understand it.
    Haplogroups have nothing to do with autosomes (entire genetics) or phenotypes. A good high-resolution autosomal breakdown might be able to predict something alongside phenotypical classifications, but this is completely lacking for the Indian subcontinent currently. We don't even have a great model for estimating ANI-vs-ASI within people without any ancient DNA (waiting on Rakhigarhi). Even taking into account ANI-ASI level resolution (which btw, ANI is separated/isolated from its closest West Asian cousins by 12,000 years, i.e. it is in subcontinent from last ice age), the main South Asian endogamous practices are from a period starting in 400-500AD, thousands of years after the ANI-ASI had vigorously mixed through and through. So a Telugu Hindu weaver community that is endogamous in last 1600 years might be carrying 60-40 ANI-ASI, and similarly a Uttar Pradesh Muslim butcher family that is not endogamous for 1600 years but is cousin-endogamous within last 400 years and is carrying a similar ratio of 60-40 ANI-ASI, they might and probably will be having very different phenotypes though. So the former might be having Australoid phenotypes, the latter might be having Caucasoid phenotypes, although by the paleolithic levels of resolution, they are the same.

    The features are younger than the paleolithic contributions of West Eurasian vs South Eurasian vs East Eurasian. If we can build the databases to start having actual population groups, to the level of how Euros have ability to distinguish between Irish vs Scots-Irish vs Welsh vs Anglo-Saxon vs Iberian etc...which at the subcontinent level would be Maratha Chitpavan Brahmin vs Maratha Saraswat Brahmin vs Punjabi Jatt vs Bengali Kayastha vs Uttar Pradesh Ansari biradari vs Sindhi Bohra etc, unless we can get that, these phenotypes will remain uncorrelated on the macro-level with the paleolithic components of ANI or ASI.

    I really wouldn't go by Australoid/Caucasoid models in Indian subcontinent. Those are Eurocentric physical descriptions, when Indians can use Indocentric physical descriptions. I see some people and might think something like "that guy has a very Tam-Brahm head shape but very Muslim-y face". At the colloquial levels we already do that. No need to blindly ape the West in every little thing especially when subjective and arbitrary like these classifications, might as well make up your own categories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire View Post
    I dont think Ydna H is from middle east rather it is legacy of Paleolithic Indians.If you find it in middle east than it is result of migration from south asia.Same thing with L which is from Indus Valley.Only J2 is middle eastern proper.
    South indians veddoid admixture(phenotypically) is stronger than other South asians which made their own somatic look.
    I found this:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

    The haplogroups of white people have the similar origin of haplogroups in India, include H.

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    Quote Originally Posted by andresasj View Post
    I found this:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_F-M89

    The haplogroups of white people have the similar origin of haplogroups in India, include H.
    Just fyi, F breaks down into haplogroups that are found in whites, Middle Easterners, South Asians, Central Asians, Native Americans, Papuans, Australian Aboriginals, etc. In fact, the more paleolithic elements of European y-dna (IJ) are much earlier separated compared to K whose descendants are found in also everyone across Eurasia (L-West Asia, M-Papuans, N-Siberians, O-East Asians, P-South Asians: which again breaks into Q-Native Americans, R-South Asians, Central Asians, Europeans).

    These haplos have little to do with phenotypes since they are also arising before modern day phenos come around to define different looks in different populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    Just fyi, F breaks down into haplogroups that are found in whites, Middle Easterners, South Asians, Central Asians, Native Americans, Papuans, Australian Aboriginals, etc. In fact, the more paleolithic elements of European y-dna (IJ) are much earlier separated compared to K whose descendants are found in also everyone across Eurasia (L-West Asia, M-Papuans, N-Siberians, O-East Asians, P-South Asians: which again breaks into Q-Native Americans, R-South Asians, Central Asians, Europeans).

    These haplos have little to do with phenotypes since they are also arising before modern day phenos come around to define different looks in different populations.
    You mean, the haplogroups H and G are not white people haplogroups?

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    Quote Originally Posted by andresasj View Post
    You mean, the haplogroups H and G are not white people haplogroups?
    How the heck is H going to be a white-people haplogroup? H is there from extreme paleolithic times in India:


    G is also there from at least the Neolithic in South Asia but probably originates in West Asia before that.

    Look there is no such thing as "white people haplogroups". There are 3 ancestral strains that go into making the modern day European, which all three met and vigorously mixed about 5000 years ago. Before that there were no white people. Their ancestors were there, but they weren't there. You could say something super downstream like R1b1a1b2.... is a "white people" haplogroup, not some mutation that arose 30-50k years ago. What you are asking about white people haplogroups is same as asking about Latino haplogroups. Sure, something super downstream can be seen as a Latino haplogroup, but anything before that is probably European or African or Amerindian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redifflal View Post
    How the heck is H going to be a white-people haplogroup? H is there from extreme paleolithic times in India:


    G is also there from at least the Neolithic in South Asia but probably originates in West Asia before that.

    Look there is no such thing as "white people haplogroups". There are 3 ancestral strains that go into making the modern day European, which all three met and vigorously mixed about 5000 years ago. Before that there were no white people. Their ancestors were there, but they weren't there. You could say something super downstream like R1b1a1b2.... is a "white people" haplogroup, not some mutation that arose 30-50k years ago. What you are asking about white people haplogroups is same as asking about Latino haplogroups. Sure, something super downstream can be seen as a Latino haplogroup, but anything before that is probably European or African or Amerindian.
    I asked haplogroupo of white people because wrong done here in translation, that is, with Caucasian features, the right is to say, Caucasians.
    My question after his statement is:
    Do you consider haplogroupos H and G people do not even Caucasians of originating from haplogroup F? I need to see your point of view.

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