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Thread: Brazilian Genetic Discussion375 days old

  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montanini View Post
    Too bad that Brazil sucks though. Nothing to be proud of. Too much slavery, 55% European Chile country perfoms better than 68% European Brazil, you don't need to be much Euro to be a decent country, just less slavery.
    i notice a lot of white/right wing Brazilians don't like their nation. a lot of nations are more screwed up then brazil south of the border and they still represent
    "A people without the knowledge of their past history, origin and culture is like a tree without roots." - Marcus Garvey

    "The most disrespected woman in America, is the black woman. The most un-protected person in America is the black woman. The most neglected person in America, is the black woman" - Malcolm X

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  3. #182
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    Estimation 1#
    São Paulo 74% Euro, 16% African, 2% East Asian, 8% Amerindian
    Rio de Janeiro 72% Euro 21% African, 7% Amerindian
    Minas Gerais 71% Euro, 22% African, 7% Amerindian
    Espirito Santo 71% Euro, 22% African, 7% Amerindian
    Paraná 79% Euro, 11% African, 9% Amerindian, 1% East Asian
    Santa Catarina 88% Euro, 6% African, 6% Amerindian
    Rio Grande do Sul 84% Euro, 8% African, 8% Amerindian
    DF/Goias 68% Euro, 20% African, 12% Amerindian
    MS: 68% Euro, 19% African, 13% Amerindian
    MT: 62% Euro, 23% African, 15% Amerindian
    Bahia: 54% Euro, 38% African, 8% Amerindian
    Maranhão 54% Euro, 30% African, 16% Amerindian
    Rest of Northeast 64% European, 20% African, 16% Amerindian
    Rondonia: 62% Euro, 16% African, 22% Amerindian
    Rest of North 52% Euro, 18% African, 30% Amerindian

    How could be the result with these numbers?

    For the South (region that I think I'm more informed), I used my own estimation that is a mix of number of Official Census, Genetic Studies, Studies about Surnames, Diverse Studies (Migration, Marriage between ethnicities, Slave trade by regions, Personal Knowledges and other studies; Post 163
    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=47296&page=17"]http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...=47296&page=17[/URL]

    Estimation 2# (with some modification) Ranges
    Santa Catarina 85-90
    Rio Grande do Sul 80-85
    Paraná 75-80
    São Paulo 70-75
    Rio de Janeiro, Minas Gerais, Espirito Santo, DF, Goias, Mato Grosso do Sul 65-70
    Alagoas, Ceará, Paraíba, Sergipe, Pernambuco, Rio Grande do Norte, Mato Grosso, Rondonia 60-65
    Acre, Tocantins, Piaui 55-60
    Bahia, Maranhão, Amazonas, Roraima, Amapa, Pará 50-55
    You could use the value of 52,5%, 57,5% here etc.

    The first is more Euro maybe, the second estimation is less Euro. Both are realist.

    São Paulo countryside 76,5% Euro
    RMSão Paulo 72% Euro

    Why I think RMSão Paulo is not 65% Euro or even under 70%? One reason, there are still many recent Euro immigrants in that city, many of them are 100% Euro and probably as high as 30% are over 90% European.

    São Paulo before 1950 was probably as Euro as Buenos Aires if not more, the city was replaced by European immigrants many times, it has considerable Euro-descent people, if ~half of the contribution of the city now is from Northeast and the average Northeast people in São Paulo is probably around 59 Euro/33 African/11 Amerindian, the city simply can't be around 65% European, the average Paulistano if you add all people is not like Daddy Yankee (maybe neither the average Brazilian is like Daddy Yankee to be honest), it is more Euro-shifted, probably Off-White with some African input and minor Amerindian and East Asian.

    IMO about 72% European, 18% African, 2% East Asian, 8% Amerindian seems honest and realist, the average Paulistano is maybe brown-skinned and maybe just around 35-40% are White-looking (my opinion), but like I said before, the number of 90%+ European people of the city increases significatly the percentage of the European contribution.

    Now São Paulo used to be over 80% European (perhaps even over 85%) before the big Northeast migration, it was a completely different city, completely. That is why people stay mad, the city is desfigured.

    Spoiler: 




    Last edited by Montanini; 2017-11-03 at 12:56.

  4. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montanini View Post
    About Argentina and Brazil my opinion...

    I think Argentina was ~45% Euro before the big immigration, then at the end of Europe immigration (Italians, Spanish, etc) the Euro input increase to 80% and now with all mestizos and Poor Provinces, Cabezas Negras and other South American immigration it is more 70-75% What do you think?

    About Brazil for sure it was more Euro than Argentina, it gained 600.000 Portugueses between 1700 and 1760 when the Brazil's population was small (there is some and underrated European immigration and especially Spanish input there too, Brazil's colonial could 2 or 3% Spanish)... and you can see even now some favelas from Salvador being 43% Euro as whole and yes in that type of place the Euro input is totally colonial and Iberian and even with all African immigration from Bahia, the lower/extreme-lower class in Salvador now is only about 50% African, and it is that the lower class always had more childrens than Middle and Upper class, you can see the same situation in Favelas from Fortaleza, 53,5% Euro, probably all Colonial, in the more Interior regions of Northeast the Colonial Euro input goes to 61,2% and that's quite high for a semi-arid region, also these people are very likely among the poorest people from these regions. Amapa, arguably the least Euro state in Brazil along with Bahia, is about 50% Euro, bro, Amapa is located in the fuck extreme North of Brazil nobody goes to there, full of poor people and it is a small state, still half of genetic contribution of those people are from Europe, Minas Gerais is like 90% Colonial and they have a big amount of cities like Bambui (79% Euro), Baependi (easily over 80% by the graph) and even Pelotas in the RS, middle city who was composed of 50% of Slaves back to 1830 is still ~77% Euro (and only like ~3.000 Europeans settled in Pelotas region after 1824, Argentina received 6.700.000 millions of Europeans in comparasion)* or even more if all people from the city could be measured because there is no such thing of 16% Afro-Brazilians in Pelotas.

    Pg. 13: http://www.eca.usp.br/turismocultura...lFrancesas.pdf

    And it is that many Europeans immigrated after to other cities around Pelotas and they weren't counted in that test of Epigen (only childrens with mother living in Pelotas was counted) and majority of people have Iberian surnames (over 82,5%) and still around 30% is over 90% European and 50% over 85% European, I would bet that this is due to Colonial input not by the 'recent' European immigration. Of course probably around 40% of all input in Southern Brazil is probably from Italy, Germany and Eastern Europe and more 10-15% is from Portugal or Spain or even Japanese (recent), but that is not the case for Pelotas, really.

    And if you analyze SP, PR and SC had more "White-Brazilians" than RS before 1800/1850.

    Brazil colonial was about as European as Brazil is nowadays if not little more (even being probably 20% non-colonial today) since lower class had much more childres, that (being over 60% Euro in the Colonial period) wasn't the case of Argentina for sure.

    I think Colonial Brazil was about 65-70% European and then at end of 1950 Brazil was about 75% European and now around 65 to 70% again, just more mixed in the lower class.

    Argentina 45 ==> 80 ==> 70-75
    Brazil 65-70 ===> 75 ===> 65-70

    What do you think?

    Spoiler: 

    If 6.7 million Europeans had immigrated to the South of Brazil instead of Argentina when the South had less than 1 million inhabitants in 1900 and it already should be something close or even more than 80% European, that region would be at least 90% European now.
    yes i agree with this.

    I think something similar

    Argentina 45 ==> 80 ==> 70-75
    Brazil 65-70 ===> 75 ===> 65-70

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to cmv88 For This Useful Post:

    Montanini (2017-11-12)

  6. #184
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    Brazil

    A Molecular Information Method to Estimate Population Admixture

    Samples: 794



    ~ 72,9% European, 16% African, 11,1% Amerindian.

    Pg. 339
    http://dlx.b-ok.org/genesis/1145000/989bb4f8cc50ea3758d1dab43c7bcaa8/_as/[Ranajit_Chakraborty,_C.R._Rao_and_Pranab_Sen_(Eds( b-ok.org).pdf

    Pena Test, 2011

    Considerations, particularly I don't believe in nothing about Pena's test, I think he has a agenda and it is clearly to me, but I don't think he lies in all think, the result of all sample is probably correct, but self-identification is probably not- no chance that self-identified Pardos in RGS are 44% Euro, same level as Black-Gaúchos, and the self-identified Brown in Ceará is 73% Euro or that Black individuals of Santa Catarina, state with low slavery being way more African than states like Rio de Janeiro or Bahia, no way; But like I said the result of all the sample is probably correct.

    Here the results add to ~100% Euro


    203 North Brazilians
    229 Northeast Brazilians
    264 Southeast Brazilians
    238 Southern Brazilians

    So the result as whole of the sample is: 70,9% European, 17% African, 10,7% Amerindian, 1,4% ??

    http://journals.plos.org/plosone/art...l.pone.0017063

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    Pelotas: Genomic ancestry and the social pathways leading to major depression in adulthood: the mediating effect of socioeconomic position and discrimination

    https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral....888-016-1015-2

    Result for Pelotas in this test:
    Pelotas 77% European 15 African 8% Amerindian

    Population ancestries estimated by Admixture(the mean of individual ancestries) using the ~ 370 K SNPs were, forEuropean, African, and Amerindian, respectively: 0.77, 0.15, and 0.08for the Pelotas cohort; 0.79, 0.14, and 0.07 for the Bambuí cohort; and0.43, 0.50, and 0.07 for the Salvador cohort (Figure 2).
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._Brazilian_set

    African ancestry in the city I'm using the median Values btw.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...49/table/Tab1/

    ~40,4% of people between 0 and 5% African ancestry = 3,4% African
    ~39,4% of people between 5% and 30% African ancestry = 8,7% African
    ~20,4% of people between 30% and 90% African ancestry = 50% African
    results combine to 15% African.

    By Income (proxy to upper and middle-upper class, middle and middle-lower class and lower class)*






    So my estimate according this graph and personal estimation is that the
    Upper middle and Upper class are ~ 9,4% SSA, 6.5% Amerindian and 84,1% European
    Middle and Lower middle class like 15% SSA, 8% Amerindian and 77% European
    Lower class 20,6% SSA, 9,5% Amerindian and 69,9% European.


    Personal estimation for African Ancestry for middle-upper class is q75+q50/2, for middle class q50 and for lower class q50+q25/2 with small modifications. Amerindian is just a guess.

    Good to remember though that along with Foz do Iguaçu and Ponta Grossa, Pelotas is the one of the three poorest places in the 20 biggest Southern Brazilian cities, probably the most colonial one and with more self-identified Afro-Brazilians too.
    Last edited by Montanini; Yesterday at 14:32.

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    It is interesting to note that slightly more than 50% of the Pelotenses (let's call them Whites) in this test were 85% or more European. So according the African ancestry in this test and my estimate of Amerindian ancestry according social class (6,5%, 8% and 9,5%), I would say that in the Upper middle and Upper classes Whites represents 72%, in the Middle class, 50% and in the Lower class they represents 28%*.


    * Similar results of Public Hospitals of Argentina where around ~24,5% were 85% or more European too and the result of Euro ancestry in all sample was 67,3% European. Remember that also ~50% (=Pelotas) of Argentinians are ~85% or more European in Buenos Aires if you add the "African" blood, the result was 80% European.

    Public Hospitals


    Buenos Aires


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    Allele frequencies of 15 STRs in a representative sample of the Brazilian population


    Allele frequencies for 15 short tandem repeat (STR) loci were obtained from a sample of 12,030 individuals undergoing paternity testing. This sample includes individuals from all States in Brazil, combined according to the current country division into five regions (North, Northeast, Central West, Southeast, and South). The most polymorphic loci were D2S1338 and D18S51. All the analysed loci meet Hardy–Weinberg equilibrium expectations. Combined power of discrimination and combined power of exclusion for the 15 tested STR loci were 0.999999999999990 and 0.9999992, respectively. Comparative analysis between populations from different Brazilian macroregions as well as between Brazil and other relevant populations are presented.

    Blood samples from 12,886 unrelated individuals were obtained from paternity testing cases conducted in each Federative Unit of the Country and shipped immediately to Alvaro Laboratory (Cascavel City, State of Parana, Brazil) for analysis. With 25,772 alleles per marker, this is one of the largest databases of allelic frequencies in Brazil. This sample is representative of the mixed ethnicity present in Brazil, and 8.26% of the individuals included are from the North region, 23.86% from the Northeast, 4.79% from the Central West, 10.32% from the Southeast and 52.77% from the South. Donors were subjected to an interview in order to obtain their informed consent.
    Extraction: Genomic DNA was extracted from whole blood samples using QIAamp blood kit (Qiagen), following the manufacturer’s instructions.
    PCR: Simultaneous amplification of 15 STR loci (multiplex PCR) plus the gender determination marker, Amelogenin, were performed using the AmpFlSTR1 IdentifilerTM PCR Amplification Kit (Applied Biosystems, Foster City, CA, USA) according to the user’s manual recommendations.

    It was estimated that in the population of Northern Brazil as a whole, the genetic contribution is 60.6% European, 21.3% African and 18.1% Amerindian. In Northeast Brazil, the contribution is 66.7% European, 23.3% African and 10.0% Amerindian. In Central West is 66.3% European, 21.7% African and 12.0% Amerindian. In Southeast is 60.7% European, 32.0% African and 7.3% Amerindian. Finally, in Southern Brazil is 81.5% European, 9.3% African and 9.2% Amerindian.



    All sample= 73,2% European, 16,5% SSA, 10,1% Amerindian




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    Some people could argue that 5% or 7% more or less Euro of one region to other is just a little, small difference, but for example, let's say a 73% European country like Cuba or Argentina (that I think they are more or less there), let's take Argentina that is more comparable to Southern Brazil than Cuba in terms of population, to supposed* 73% European Argentina reach the supposed 81,5% European Southern Brazil (with already 44 million of Argentinians) they would need 20 million purely European people (this is the equivalent to half of all ethnic Spanish from Spain, more than twice ethnic Portuguese from Portugal) and all entering now at the same time, that sounds crazy, not?

    *I don't know if Argentina is really 73% European or more and I don't know if Southern Brazil is 81,5% European (imo could be somewhere between 79,5% and 84%), but this is fair bet to both regions according I've seen until now.


    44 million ~ 73% European
    20 million ~ 100% European
    64 million ~ 81,4 European

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