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Thread: Calling out resident Slavs of ABF159 days old

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexander View Post
    It's good we're talking about Bronze Age Scythians then, not Iron Age.



    Yes, but their genetic distance to the Yamnaya is much larger than that of the North Europeans, because the non-Yamnaya half of their ancestry is composed of wildly different ancestry in comparison to the EEF. Here's the pairwise FST from Haak et al (2015):

    I don't see modern Indo-Iranian samples in that Fixation index...not to mention it shows Scandinavian Hunter Gathers, Western Hunter Gatherers, all more distant than modern Semitic speaking Near Easterners like Bedouins. LBK Central European farmers are barely closer than modern Bedouins. Anyway that fixation index needs Neolithic Iranian samples to be relevant to the topic of which pre steppe group was more different..and how much more different.

    I only think if we go deep into South Asia will the differences be large. WHG and ENFs in Europe are not that close.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-06-05 at 18:58.

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  3. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Well, a lot of Indo-Iranian speakers of the Near East have a bunch. Pushtuns, Kalasha,

    I don't know if the Kalash qualify as Middle Easterners? Pashtuns maybe, but the Kalash are basically 'white Indians'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    How is Neolithic Iranian ancestry that so much more different from the Bronze age steppe...as say Western Hunter Gatherer or Anatolian Farmer is?
    The proto-Indo-Europeans (never mind the proto-Indo-Iranians) already had WHG and farmer admixture; they did not have admixture from Iran and India at that point. Not sure about Neolithic Iranian ancestry, but certainly not ASI in any case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    On PCA All three both look very distant to the Early Bronze age Steppe.
    Perhaps, but Indians have some east Asian admixture, and Iranians some Negroid admixture (Iranians also have Mongoloid admixture), and so on. You can't just look at ancient components, especially not these ancient components which do not take into account admixture from modern non-Caucasoid groups.

    Anyway, have you seen where Kalash cluster? Have a look here:

    www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/PCA84pops.html

    ^^ All Indo-European speaking Europeans cluster very close to one another, but Indo-Iranians cluster far away from IE-speaking Europeans and not even close to one another (Iranians among Semites, and Indians way outside of the rest). So clearly modern Indo-Iranians (including the Kalash) are not representative of Indo-Iranian ancestry, even if they have significant Yamnaya admixture, it's clearly modern Indo-Iranians who are the outliers. That's not to say modern IE-speaking Europeans are perfectly preserved specimen of the proto-Indo-Europeans; no, they too have some non-Yamnaya admixture, but the non-Yamnaya admixture of modern Europeans is simply more non-ANE ancestry that the Yamnaya tribe already had.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-06-05 at 19:07.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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  5. #103
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    ^^ All Indo-European speaking Europeans cluster very close to one another, but Indo-Iranians cluster far away from IE-speaking Europeans and not even close to one another (Iranians among Semites, and Indians way outside of the rest). So clearly modern Indo-Iranians (including the Kalash) are not representative of Indo-Iranian ancestry, even if they have Yamnaya admixture, it's clearly modern Indo-Iranians who are the outliers. That's not to say modern IE-speaking Europeans are perfectly preserved specimen of the proto-Indo-Europeans; no, they too have some non-Yamnaya admixture, but the non-Yamnaya admixture of modern Europeans is simply more non-ANE ancestry that the Yamnaya tribe already had.
    Modern Indo-Iranians are outsiders compared to IE speaking Europe..but what does that mean? Nothing really. U could easily say Europeans are the outliers compared to the Iranians and Indo-Aryans like the Kalash or Pushtuns. Iranians being close to Semites? How is that a valid argument? That's like saying French, Spanish, and British are close to non IE speaking Basques. That Doesn't mean anything.

    We honestly would need a fixation index which included Neolithic Iranian, Anatolian Farmer, and WHG..and then compared them to EMBA Steppe. Honestly none of these supposedly pre IE speaking groups seems to be that close to EMBA steppe. Maybe the folks in Europe are closer..but it won't be vastly closer.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-06-05 at 19:11.

  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Modern Indo-Iranians are outsiders compared to IE speaking Europe..
    Yeah, hence they're not actual Indo-European populations, autosomal-wise anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    but what does that mean? Nothing really.
    It means they're Indo-Europeans in language only, and to some extent religion and Y-DNA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    U could easily say Europeans are the outliers compared to the Iranians and Indo-Aryans like the Kalash or Pushtuns.
    No, you can't say that, because the Indo-European speaking cluster in Europe, contains almost all living branches of Indo-European languages except Indo-Iranian and Armenian, and Indo-Iranian languages have been spoken by Europeans in the past anyway, namely, the Scythians.

    Per Occam's razor, what are the odds that the proto-Indo-Europeans cluster closer to Iranians or Indians, than they'd plot among the cluster with most linguistic diversity of their ancestral language? Keep in mind that the European gene pool is very homogenous, and it contains Albanian, Balto-Slavic, Germanic, Hellenic and Italo-Celtic speakers. On the non-European side, you have Armenians and Indo-Iranians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Iranians being close to Semites? How is that a valid argument? That's like saying French, Spanish, and British are close to non IE speaking Basques. That Doesn't mean anything.
    You know what? You modern Greeks have serious problems with logic And no, Britons aren't closer to Basques than they are to Russians:



    ^^ Even Spaniards and Greeks who don't have that much Yamnaya ancestry and clearly pull toward Basques and Sardinians, are genetically more similar to Yamnaya than modern Indo-Iranians are. And by the way, even Assyrians for that matter, even though we have far less Yamnaya admixture than Iranians, are genetically more similar to the Yamnaya genome profile, than modern Iranians are, and especially Indians.

    You have to understand something here: it's not enough to have significant amount/admixture of a certain component; your overall ancestry / genome components must not be too dissimilar either. If we cloned back a pure Yamnaya aR1an specimen and gave him the opportunity to mate with Chinese and Nigerian women, which do you think would be most similar to the Yamnaya tribe's genome profile: his race mixed children's genomes which would be 50% Yamnaya and 50% Chinese or Nigerian, or modern Swedes/Poles? Hell, even Assyrian Semitic untermenschen would be genetically more similar to Yamnayans than his mixed race children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    We honestly would need a fixation index which included Neolithic Iranian, Anatolian Farmer, and WHG..and then compared them to EMBA Steppe. Honestly none of these supposedly pre IE speaking groups seems to be that close to EMBA steppe. Maybe the folks in Europe are closer..but it won't be vastly closer.
    It's not a "maybe"; obviously Europeans are much closer genetically to the proto-Indo-European tribe of Yamnaya. If you can't figure out this obvious genetic fact (which you don't need fixation indexes for), you're a total n00b.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-06-05 at 21:35.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Has nothing to do with Polako. The fact that me and Polako agree here, is because of knowledge and logic (two important ancient Greek concepts btw), forcing us to think alike (and great minds think alike, due to knowledge). Science is very "fascistic"; there's no room for disagreement or "opinions" when it comes to knowledge. You just have to accept the facts as they are.

    Actually, that is precisely the point, since this topic is about the proto-Indo-Iranians ("Scythians" is what they're most known as), and the proto-Indo-Iranians were a genetic group, who if they had lived on until today unmixed with other populations from Asia, would be very similar genetically, to Balto-Slavic and Germanic populations.

    You do understand that we're talking about the proto-Indo-Iranians here, right? Modern Iranian speakers are basically language shifted Middle Easterners, and the same is true of Indians. They're under no circumstances the same population as the proto-Indo-Iranians and/or Scythians. The people of Iran are not the Scythians, not even close.

    Your problem here is that you're not thinking fourth dimensionally (yes, both place and time are important components here):

    ^^ This is the problem with you mainstream thinkers: you're not capable of thinking outside the box and unlearn what you think you know but in actuality, isn't real knowledge.
    According to Polako's very nice link, the historical Scythians were a seriously mixed group.



    I don't doubt that proto-indo-iranians (sorry, wanted to write proto-proto-proto-proto-polish :P) could have been pure Yamnaya or something like that, but that is not important. Half of the historical Scythians were mixed with Asians! LoL!!!

    It is actually quite a shock for me, I always believed that the steppes were inhabited by Caucasians until 500 AD when the hephtalites were conquered by the Gokturks... Who were those dudes and what language did they speak? The ancestors of the Turkic speakers (if i remember correctly) were still somewhere in Manchuria at that time!!!

    Anyway, I'll stop making fun of Polako, but he should chill.
    afk

  9. #106
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    Yeah, hence they're not actual Indo-European populations, autosomal-wise anyway.
    Well then no one today is either. Including Europeans.

    It means they're Indo-Europeans in language only, and to some extent religion and Y-DNA.
    And about half their ancestry...in some regions at least. Some have less of course.


    You know what? You modern Greeks have serious problems with logic And no, Britons aren't closer to Basques than they are to Russians:
    I didnt say Britons were closer to Basques than to Russians. I said Britons are pretty close to Basques in general.




    You have to understand something here: it's not enough to have significant amount/admixture of a certain component; your overall ancestry / genome components must not be too dissimilar either. If we cloned back a pure Yamnaya aR1an specimen and gave him the opportunity to mate with Chinese and Nigerian women, which do you think would be most similar to the Yamnaya tribe's genome profile: his race mixed children's genomes which would be 50% Yamnaya and 50% Chinese or Nigerian, or modern Swedes/Poles? Hell, even Assyrian Semitic untermenschen would be genetically more similar to Yamnayans than his mixed race children.
    Yes I'm aware of that. But the problem is the pre Indo-European Neolithic populations of Iran were not much more dissimilar to the Proto Indo-European steppe populations than the Neolithic populations in Europe and Anatolia were to the Proto Indo-European steppe populations, or the indigenous Mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherers of Europe compared to the Proto Indo-European steppe populations.



    As you can see Neolithic Anatolia nor WHGs in Europe are not a spot on match with Early Bronze Age steppe populations who supposedly spoke late stage PIE.

    So..We'll have to see to see what the pre Indo-European populations of South Asia were like now. But for the Neolithic populations in Iran and Pakistan it's not much bigger than Northern Europe or Southeastern Europe and Anatolia.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-06-06 at 18:42.

  10. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Well then no one today is either. Including Europeans.
    Yeah. The proto-Indo-Europeans are completely extinct. However, today, northern and eastern Europeans can arguably lay claim to Indo-European ancestry better than any Indo-Iranian population (including the Kalash), because not only do they have more Indo-European autosomal DNA (and haplogroups for that matter), but the non-Indo-European ancestry they have, is less dissimilar to the overall ancestry of the Yamnaya tribe, than the non-Indo-European ancestry carried by for example the Kalash. In other words, northern and eastern Europeans are more genetically compatible with the proto-Indo-Europeans.

    Of course this doesn't mean the Kalash don't have Indo-European ancestry; of course they do. And I'm not saying they can't identify with their Indo-European ancestors. Obviously they're a cultural product and legacy of these steppe nomads.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    And about half their ancestry...in some regions at least. Some have less of course.
    Well, northern and eastern Europeans have more than half their ancestry from the Yamnaya tribe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    I didnt say Britons were closer to Basques than to Russians. I said Britons are pretty close to Basques in general.
    Not really. What are you basing this on anyway, like what PCA plot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Yes I'm aware of that. But the problem is the pre Indo-European Neolithic populations of Iran were not much more dissimilar to the Proto Indo-European steppe populations than the Neolithic populations in Europe and Anatolia were to the Proto Indo-European steppe populations, or the indigenous Mesolithic Western Hunter Gatherers of Europe compared to the Proto Indo-European steppe populations.
    It doesn't matter, because it's not like modern Iranians are descended from only Neolithic Iranians + proto-Indo-Iranians. I mean you do understand that they carry a lot of ancestry from the Near East (such as Elamites, Semites and so on), right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post


    As you can see Neolithic Anatolia nor WHGs in Europe are not a spot on match with Early Bronze Age steppe populations who supposedly spoke late stage PIE.
    Who said Neolithic Anatolia and WHG were genetically identical to the Yamnaya tribe? All I said is that the PIEs/Yamnaya had ancestry from Neolithic farmers and WHG, whereas as far I know, they did not have ancestry from Neolithic Iran.

    What happened after the Yamnaya tribe began expanding, in Europe, was that the descendants of Yamnaya became even more admixed with ancestry they already had. I mean it's not like Yamnaya was 100% ANE you know. In other parts of Eurasia, the descendants of Yamnaya became mixed with non-Yamnaya ancestry, especially in Siberia where the descendants of the Scythian became mixed with Turco-Mongols.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    So..We'll have to see to see what the pre Indo-European populations of South Asia were like now. But for the Neolithic populations in Iran and Pakistan it's not much bigger than Northern Europe or Southeastern Europe and Anatolia.
    Yeah yeah. Modern Europeans are the primary descendants of the proto-Indo-Europeans, based on the high linguistic diversity of Indo-European languages and the high homogeneity of the European gene pool (meaning, the bulk of Yamnaya's population settled in Europe. and mixed with non-PIE speaking Europeans). Even Anatolian pseudo-Turks (whose ancestors spoke Hittite, Lydian and other Indo-European languages in the past) and Armenians are fairly genetically close to the European gene pool, so that means modern Indo-Iranian speakers are very off from the rest of the crowd, and basically the "black sheep". It's very unlikely that the proto-Indo-Iranians would have cluster closer to, take say, the Kalash, than they would to any other European ethnic group. I don't think you even need ancient DNA to figure out the obvious here. In fact, I was saying exactly this stuff years before any ancient DNA was released. Never did I argue that modern Indo-Iranians would be genetically more similar to the PIEs than modern Europeans. I don't understand how you can argue or at least entertain the thought that the the genetic distance between modern Indo-Iranians and Europeans is roughly equal to the proto-Indo-Europeans.

    Anyway, this topic is pointless and retarded to argue any further. I'm tired of these Indo-European topics. This shit was interesting like 5-10 years ago.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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  12. #108
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    because not only do they have more Indo-European autosomal DNA (and haplogroups for that matter), but the non-Indo-European ancestry they have, is less dissimilar to the overall ancestry of the Yamnaya tribe, than the non-Indo-European ancestry carried by for example the Kalash.
    That only applies to the South Asian "Onge" like pre Indo-European component Kalasha carry...not the Iranian Neolithic component which makes up the bulk of the Kalasha's pre IE component.

    Not to mention Northeastern Europeans have a mongoloid post IE component related to Nganasans



    In other words, northern and eastern Europeans are more genetically compatible with the proto-Indo-Europeans.
    Maybe..but not by very much.

    Of course this doesn't mean the Kalash don't have Indo-European ancestry; of course they do. And I'm not saying they can't identify with their Indo-European ancestors. Obviously they're a cultural product and legacy of these steppe nomads.
    And genetic of course.

    Well, northern and eastern Europeans have more than half their ancestry from the Yamnaya tribe.
    No they don't.



    Not really. What are you basing this on anyway, like what PCA plot?
    Uhh, the stupid amateur graph you initially posted.

    http://www.scs.illinois.edu/~mcdonald/PCA84pops.html

    It doesn't matter, because it's not like modern Iranians are descended from only Neolithic Iranians + proto-Indo-Iranians. I mean you do understand that they carry a lot of ancestry from the Near East (such as Elamites, Semites and so on), right?
    Northeastern Europeans carry ancestry from Uralic speakers from Siberia

    Who said Neolithic Anatolia and WHG were genetically identical to the Yamnaya tribe? All I said is that the PIEs/Yamnaya had ancestry from Neolithic farmers and WHG, whereas as far I know, they did not have ancestry from Neolithic Iran
    .

    Yamnaya are typically modeled as a 50/50 mix of Eastern Hunter Gatherers and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers like Jones et al did. Lazardis modeled them as a 55/45 mix of Eastern Hunter Gatherers and Chalcolithic Iranians..and Chalcolithic Iranians have a Neolithic Iranian component. The only "WHG" ancestry the PIEs had is from EHGs..when EHGs are added to the mix..WHG ancestry is under 5% of the Yamnaya. EHGs were the direct ancestors of the Yamnaya not WHGs.



    I don't understand how you can argue or at least entertain the thought that the the genetic distance between modern Indo-Iranians and Europeans is roughly equal to the proto-Indo-Europeans.
    It depends on the Indo-Iranian group obviously. If we are talking Kalash or Pushtuns then it won't be a big difference. If we are talking Central Indians yes there will be a big difference.

    Anyway, this topic is pointless and retarded to argue any further. I'm tired of these Indo-European topics. This shit was interesting like 5-10 years ago.
    Sure. then stop the straw mans and made up bullshit.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-06-07 at 18:32.

  13. #109
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    When using K36 nMonte with these 23 ancient samples:

    RISE598, RISE174, BR2, RISE150, I0116, I0247 (Volga Scythian), PLN17, RISE577, RISE566, RISE586, RISE154, IR1, RISE276, I0803, I0099, I1955, BR1, RISE373, RISE397, RISE374, RISE412, I0047, I0164

    I get the following results for Polish regional averages:

    http://i.imgur.com/MDmd9Cf.png



    PL_Wielkopolska

    RISE598 33.5
    BR2 21.8
    RISE150 17.9
    RISE174 12.1
    PLN17 10.2
    I0247 4.4

    PL_North

    RISE598 36.00
    RISE150 33.20
    RISE174 18.00
    BR2 7.75
    I0247 4.20
    IR1 0.85

    PL_Kashubians

    RISE598 36.15
    RISE174 26.30
    BR2 19.90
    RISE150 6.50
    I0116 5.85
    I0247 5.30

    PL_Upper_Silesia

    RISE598 33.00
    BR2 32.10
    RISE150 27.35
    I0247 5.90
    IR1 1.65

    PL_South_Poland

    BR2 35.5
    RISE598 32.8
    RISE150 24.3
    I0247 7.1
    RISE412 0.4

    PL_SE_Carpathia

    BR2 33.4
    RISE598 31.6
    RISE150 16.7
    I0116 11.2
    I0247 7.2

    PL_Mazovia

    RISE598 44.95
    RISE150 24.35
    BR2 18.20
    PLN17 5.55
    I0247 4.00
    I0116 2.95

    PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia

    RISE598 46.00
    BR2 14.65
    I0116 14.15
    PLN17 13.00
    I0247 6.65
    RISE174 4.65
    RISE150 0.90

    PL_Sudovia

    RISE598 55.90
    I0116 18.10
    RISE174 12.90
    I0247 9.15
    BR2 3.95

    PL_mixed

    RISE598 42.6
    RISE150 25.1
    BR2 23.5
    I0247 7.0
    I0116 1.7

    Polish averages are from our K36 Oracle: http://k36.physical-anthropology.info

    ==============

    BR2 is a Hungarian Bronze Age sample from Cassidy et al. 2015:

    Last edited by Litvin; 2017-06-07 at 16:48.
    Ancient R1b-DF27 sample:
    ~2431-2150 BC, Bell Beaker, Quedlinburg
    Ancient samples of W6a:
    ~3500-2700 BC, Yamnaya, Lopatino II
    ~3260-2630 BC, Corded Ware, Plinkaigalis
    ~2566-2477 BC, Corded Ware, Esperstedt

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