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Thread: Are there any unique Greek R1b subclades that can be linked to early Indo-European proto-Greeks?140 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    However, there's always the possibility that modern Greeks have been genetically influenced by relatively recent Semitic/Anatolian admixture, when Greece was one country along with Anatolia and the Levant for hundreds of years.
    The Sarno et al 2017 study demonstrates mainland Greeks (and even Aegean islanders, when compared to Sicily or Crete) have little to no Semitic/Levantine ancestry, but they do have an affinity to the Caucasus in line with the rest of Southeast Europe. The only region with a significant Afroasiatic input was Crete.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    The Sarno et al 2017 study demonstrates mainland Greeks (and even Aegean islanders, when compared to Sicily or Crete) have little to no Semitic/Levantine ancestry, but they do have an affinity to the Caucasus in line with the rest of Southeast Europe. The only region with a significant Afroasiatic input was Crete.
    That may be the case, but if so, the original pre-Indo-European natives of Greece, were genetically fairly close to Levantines, Mesopotamians and Anatolians, because modern Greeks are about as genetically close to Middle Easterners as Italians and Spaniards are, perhaps a bit closer too. In any case, the relevant question here is if it was R1b, or R1a that started the proto-Greek language, or could it have been both? As far as I'm concerned, proto-Germanic was started out by R1a, and then Centum influenced by the R1b tribe the R1a proto-Germanics mingled with, because Germanic is closer to Balto-Slavic than it is to other Centum languages, yet it is a Centum language nonetheless (probably a Celtic influence), so the question is if proto-Greek went through a similar phase of 'hybridization' between various IE tribes and their dialects. If I remember correctly, it was either @Jaska or some Indo-Europeanist (David Anthony or JP Mallory) who said that the Greek language wasn't necessarily the development of a single tribe, but could have been the result of different waves of IE-speakers who settled Greece.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    That may be the case, but if so, the original pre-Indo-European natives of Greece, were genetically fairly close to Levantines, Mesopotamians and Anatolians, because modern Greeks are about as genetically close to Middle Easterners as Italians and Spaniards are, perhaps a bit closer too.
    This is actually false. There are a group of regions and islands with more MENA affinity and they transcend modern borders: Sicily, Calabria, Malta, Crete, etc. That is three separate nations. People in Epirus in northern Greece are genetically less MENA than are people in Abruzzo even, about on par with Tuscany. Generalizations cannot be made about entire countries here because some regions are outlying in each country and others not.

    You can model Sicilians and Cretans as Greek + MENA for instance because there is 20-25% North European in Greece.

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    In other words when discussing MENA affinity it is nonsensical to discuss it in terms of "Italy" "Spain" "Greece" when we should be discussing specific outlier regions in each country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    The proto-Greeks should have been way over 50% Steppe, similar to Srubnaya, Andronovo and so on. But of course the proto-Greeks were fresh off the Steppes, and were genetically very different from the early Greeks in take say, the Trojan war, or Classical Greece. In any case I believe that by the time of Alexander the Great, the Yamnaya component should have been smaller than what it is today, given the Slavic immigration to the Balkans which also affected the Greek gene pool (in other words, an increase of the Yamnaya / northern European component). However, there's always the possibility that modern Greeks have been genetically influenced by relatively recent Semitic/Anatolian admixture, when Greece was one country along with Anatolia and the Levant for hundreds of years. But I don't know enough about that, I'm sure Polako can give a better answer here. In any case, if that's the case, the Yamnaya component may have either decreased compared to the ancient Greeks, or remained the same after Slavic admixture evened it out.

    It seems to me however, that proto-Greeks settled iN Greece before Corded Ware, whereas Indo-Iranians came to Iran and India after and from Corded Ware. It's difficult to be certain on any of this until we have shit loads of ancient DNA, but that would explain Greek is a Centum language (meaning, an earlier stage of PIE), R1b being more frequent in Greeks and also less blond / blue eyed Greeks compared to Germano-Balto-Slavs.
    Any steppe estimate on Proto Greeks is complete conjecture at this point IMO. We have Corded Ware 73% steppe and Bronze Age Anatolians 0% steppe. Greeks could be anything in between.

    Hopefully..just to help solve the IE question..the early Mycenenean elites will be at least 25-30% "steppe".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Any steppe estimate on Proto Greeks is complete conjecture at this point IMO. We have Corded Ware 73% steppe and Bronze Age Anatolians 0% steppe. Greeks could be anything in between.

    Hopefully..just to help solve the IE question..the early Mycenenean elites will be at least 25-30% "steppe".
    The proto-Greeks will very likely be much higher in Yamnaya admixture, than modern Greeks. They might not be 75% Yamnaya like Corded War was, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be 50% Yamnaya or something like 35-45%. All early Yamnaya colonies were significantly Yamnaya, so I don't see why the proto-Greeks should have been 18% Yamnaya like modern Greeks.

    The relevant question here, is if it was R1a or R1b that colonized Greece and kickstarted the Greek language there. Chances are they were mainly R1b, like other Centum branches of Indo-European in Western Europe and possibly also the Tocharians, or maybe they were R1a-Z93 like @Polako is speculating. But R1a seems to mainly have been a Corded Ware thing (Sintashta and Andronovo spread from and after Corded Ware, not directly from the original/early PIE era in the Pontic-Caspian steppe), so it's quite probable that the proto-Greeks were R1b, but the thing is, the Greek language is said to be closely related to Indo-Iranian languages (and Armenian), so R1a is a possibility here.
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    The proto-Greeks will very likely be much higher in Yamnaya admixture, than modern Greeks. They might not be 75% Yamnaya like Corded War was, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be 50% Yamnaya or something like 35-45%. All early Yamnaya colonies were significantly Yamnaya, so I don't see why the proto-Greeks should have been 18% Yamnaya like modern Greeks.

    The relevant question here, is if it was R1a or R1b that colonized Greece and kickstarted the Greek language there. Chances are they were mainly R1b, like other Centum branches of Indo-European in Western Europe and possibly also the Tocharians, or maybe they were R1a-Z93 like @Polako is speculating. But R1a seems to mainly have been a Corded Ware thing (Sintashta and Andronovo spread from and after Corded Ware, not directly from the original/early PIE era in the Pontic-Caspian steppe), so it's quite probable that the proto-Greeks were R1b, but the thing is, the Greek language is said to be closely related to Indo-Iranian languages (and Armenian), so R1a is a possibility here.
    I dunno..the Greeks were pretty far South and in populated areas...the Bronze Age Anatolian samples we have right now are like 0% so I don't know what to estimate for Early Greeks. But yes the Greeks could also be 50%...who knows at this point. Still waiting on that damn Mycenaean sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    The proto-Greeks will very likely be much higher in Yamnaya admixture, than modern Greeks. They might not be 75% Yamnaya like Corded War was, but I wouldn't be surprised if they'll be 50% Yamnaya or something like 35-45%. All early Yamnaya colonies were significantly Yamnaya, so I don't see why the proto-Greeks should have been 18% Yamnaya like modern Greeks.

    The relevant question here, is if it was R1a or R1b that colonized Greece and kickstarted the Greek language there. Chances are they were mainly R1b, like other Centum branches of Indo-European in Western Europe and possibly also the Tocharians, or maybe they were R1a-Z93 like @Polako is speculating. But R1a seems to mainly have been a Corded Ware thing (Sintashta and Andronovo spread from and after Corded Ware, not directly from the original/early PIE era in the Pontic-Caspian steppe), so it's quite probable that the proto-Greeks were R1b, but the thing is, the Greek language is said to be closely related to Indo-Iranian languages (and Armenian), so R1a is a possibility here.
    Thats quite a theory. But if luwian and hittite is indo-euro and Anatolia was only farmer. How do you explain this with only R1b?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    I dunno..the Greeks were pretty far South and in populated areas...the Bronze Age Anatolian samples we have right now are like 0% so I don't know what to estimate for Early Greeks. But yes the Greeks could also be 50%...who knows at this point. Still waiting on that damn Mycenaean sample.
    What I'm saying is that when the proto-Greeks entered Greece, they were obviously a different ethnic group than the Helladic folks, and there's no reason to assume that the proto-Greeks were the same genetic group as modern Greeks. So yeah, Yamnaya should have been a very high component among them. Wasn't Srubnaya like 90% Yamnaya? Or was that Afanasevo?

    Quote Originally Posted by IstenmeyenTuy View Post
    Thats quite a theory. But if luwian and hittite is indo-euro and Anatolia was only farmer. How do you explain this with only R1b?
    Explain what? I don't understand your question.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post

    Explain what? I don't understand your question.
    I mean werent Anatolians J2? And if indo euro language is related with R1b, how Anatolians had it too while they were just farmers before. Im just trying to understand/learn

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