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Thread: Are there any unique Greek R1b subclades that can be linked to early Indo-European proto-Greeks?86 days old

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    Default Are there any unique Greek R1b subclades that can be linked to early Indo-European proto-Greeks?

    I was thinking about something in line with proto-Greek founders. I know Greeks also have R1a, but that's likely from post-Greek Slavic immigration. R1b is a fairly hefty portion of the Greek Y-DNA distribution:



    So, consistent with Haak et al. 2015 of R1b in Yamnaya, and the high frequency of R1b among Centum speakers, the original proto-Greeks should have been in the main, R1b carriers. Or does Greek R1b post-date the original proto-Hellenic colonization of Greece?
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-06-30 at 05:35.
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    Will be interesting to see how much steppe ancestry the early Greeks carry. I'm talking about 1300 BC or earlier. Perhaps they will have bloated steppe ancestry compared to moderns. At the very least I hope they have around as much as today's Greeks and don't come out with virtually nil like the Bronze Age Anatolian samples did in that recent study.
    Last edited by Arch Hades; 2017-06-30 at 06:10.

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    By focusing on R1b, you might be missing the elephant in the room: R1a-Z93, already found in aDNA from Bronze Age Bulgaria (1700 BC, just before the Mycenaean period).



    Now read this...


    Horse-harness and the origins of the Mycenaean civilisation

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    By focusing on R1b, you might be missing the elephant in the room: R1a-Z93, already found in aDNA from Bronze Age Bulgaria (1700 BC, just before the Mycenaean period).
    Didn't know that. You think it could be connected to the Graeco-Aryan hypothesis? Armenians carry some Z93 too.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    I just got out of my awesome, sexy new shower, and I'm about to eat some soy bean breakfast and hit the gym, so later. Any cool excerpt you're thinking of though?

    But while Z93 cannot be excluded from the picture now, perhaps I should have asked in the first post, is Greek R1b in any way a subclade of Italian R1b, or perhaps Nordic R1b? I'm thinking of Gothic presence in Greece, stuff like that.

    Also, how much Z93 do modern Greeks have?
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-06-30 at 09:49. Reason: double mention
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Didn't know that. You think it could be connected to the Graeco-Aryan hypothesis? Armenians carry some Z93 too. And so do Armenians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan
    It might be.

    Any cool excerpt you're thinking of though?
    The whole thing is good, if perhaps overly cautious.

    But while Z93 cannot be excluded from the picture now, perhaps I should have asked in the first post, is Greek R1b in any way a subclade of Italian R1b, or perhaps Nordic R1b? I'm thinking of Gothic presence in Greece, stuff like that.
    Don't know much about Greek R1b, but I'd look for Z2103, because that's what the Yamnaya moving into the Balkans had.

    Also, how much Z93 do modern Greeks have?
    Not much, but they do have it, and no way is it from Slavs or Turks. So the appearance of the Mycenaean dynasty in Greece may have been a classic elite dominance thing, associated with the spread of the Horse/Chariot complex during the Middle Bronze Age.

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    The thing about R1a-Z93 in 1700 BC Bulgaria, is that it fits very well right before proto-Indo-Iranian split up in Iranic and Indic dialects (which was around 1,500 BC if I remember correctly). So that Z93 in Bulgaria could mark the recent split-up between Graeco-Aryan.

    Is modern Greek Z93 a unique clade of R1a, or is it downstream from Iranian/Indian Z93? Because you know, there has been some Persian presence in Greece during all those wars. This Bulgarian Z93 should in any case be Big-Y tested.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-06-30 at 09:51.
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

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    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post

    Not much, but they do have it, and no way is it from Slavs or Turks. So the appearance of the Mycenaean dynasty in Greece may have been a classic elite dominance thing, associated with the spread of the Horse/Chariot complex during the Middle Bronze Age.
    From the 1915 to nearly 1930s 1,5 million people moved from Anatolia to Greece. Greece population that time was much less than now.
    Many of the ones who moved were Greek speaking ofc. But also many were not. Like Karamanli Turks who use Greek alphabet to write Turkish and never learnt Greek in history. They converted to greek orthodox in central Anatolia. They also migrated to Greece because the population exchenge was based on religion only. Turkey also got many pomaks and greek muslims. Not only türkmen regions of the balkans. I mean Z93 of modern Greece might be Turks from Anatolia actually. The recent 'population exchenge' s effect is huge on Greece. Their population was less than half of today and got 1,5 million. Many were not even Greek but only christian. (Venizelos and Atatürk deal to make the exchenge based on religion). Then Atatürk regret it and said to his close friends it was a mistake to send Karamanlis to Greece. He felt like he betrayed them. They were not Greek at all. They learnt Greek in Greece
    Last edited by IstenmeyenTuy; 2017-06-30 at 10:01.

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    It makes no difference who moved to Greece after the Bronze Age and what sort of Z93 is now found in Greece.

    The main point is that Z93 was found in the Bronze Age Balkans in a sample that looks basically identical to Andronovo and Srubnaya, and Mycenaean elite burials look like they were influenced by such cultures.

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    I see. I just mean todays percentage of Z93 in mainland Greece wouldnt directly connected to bronze age. The story is more complicated. Many would be just recent

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    Will be interesting to see how much steppe ancestry the early Greeks carry. I'm talking about 1300 BC or earlier. Perhaps they will have bloated steppe ancestry compared to moderns. At the very least I hope they have around as much as today's Greeks and don't come out with virtually nil like the Bronze Age Anatolian samples did in that recent study.
    The proto-Greeks should have been way over 50% Steppe, similar to Srubnaya, Andronovo and so on. But of course the proto-Greeks were fresh off the Steppes, and were genetically very different from the early Greeks in take say, the Trojan war, or Classical Greece. In any case I believe that by the time of Alexander the Great, the Yamnaya component should have been smaller than what it is today, given the Slavic immigration to the Balkans which also affected the Greek gene pool (in other words, an increase of the Yamnaya / northern European component). However, there's always the possibility that modern Greeks have been genetically influenced by relatively recent Semitic/Anatolian admixture, when Greece was one country along with Anatolia and the Levant for hundreds of years. But I don't know enough about that, I'm sure Polako can give a better answer here. In any case, if that's the case, the Yamnaya component may have either decreased compared to the ancient Greeks, or remained the same after Slavic admixture evened it out.

    It seems to me however, that proto-Greeks settled iN Greece before Corded Ware, whereas Indo-Iranians came to Iran and India after and from Corded Ware. It's difficult to be certain on any of this until we have shit loads of ancient DNA, but that would explain Greek is a Centum language (meaning, an earlier stage of PIE), R1b being more frequent in Greeks and also less blond / blue eyed Greeks compared to Germano-Balto-Slavs.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-06-30 at 11:31.
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    “A wise man makes his own decisions; an ignorant man follows public opinion.” ― Chinese proverb

    “Every decent man is ashamed of the government he lives under.” ― H. L. Mencken

    “The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance.” ― Socrates

    “Damnant quod non intelligunt.” ― Latin proverb

    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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