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Thread: Y-DNA in Iron Age Poland232 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litvin View Post
    Dawni królowie Gothorum stali się chłopami:



    Za: Czekanowski, "Wstęp do historii Słowian", 1957.
    But on the other hand my only close STR match (I1-Z63) at FTDNA is a man belonging to the family of Polish medieval magnates who among others produced this saint immortalised at the Saint Peters's square in Vatican:

    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-07-13 at 00:54.

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    Piontek 2017 Ludność kultury wielbarskiej - wyniki badań antropologicznych.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by Piontek, 2017
    Population of the Wielbark Culture
    Results of Anthropological research

    Culture, population, settlement and demographic processes taking place in the Oder and Vistula river basins from Late Antiquity to the Early Middle Ages have long been discussed in history, archaeology and linguistics. Recent years have seen increasingly fierce discussions and, as a result, the proliferation of controversial hypotheses, which affect the historical and ethnic interpretations. Sadly, the debates overlook the results of anthropological research. There seem to be a group of archaeologists who question the reliability of research methods used by anthropologists and postulate that they should be verified. This can be inferred from various interdisciplinary discussions or archaeological works. Yet, the anthropological literature is replete with studies by several researchers, who have published the data on the morphological characteristics of hundreds of individuals buried in cemeteries dating from the Roman Iron Age and found in the Oder and Vistula river basins. The analyses have been conducted under very precisely defined procedures (using the same research instruments, research technique, methodology, methods, etc.). As a consequence, the data published by various authors can be used in comparative statistical analyses.

    This paper attempts to describe the biological structure of human populations living in the Oder and Vistula basins in the Roman Iron Age. According to archaeologists, the populations are attributable to the Wielbark Culture. This article examines the odontological and craniological diversity of the population of the Wielbark Culture, and the morphological differentiation of the population of the Wielbark Culture as compared to the early medieval populations from Central and Northern Europe.

    Using properly chosen methods of statistical analysis (biological distance calculations, multidimensional scaling of the distance matrix and the method of principal components) and properly selected sets of morphological features, it has been demonstrated that the population of the Wielbark Culture bore the strong biological (genetic) similarity to the population of the Western Slavs. It has been shown therefore that the people living in the basins of the Oder and Vistula rivers in the medieval period did not differ, in biological terms, from the population occupying these areas during the Roman Iron Age. The results of studies on the differentiation of human populations from the Roman Iron Age and the Early Middle Ages in terms of craniological and odontological features allow therefore for a negative verification of the hypothesis about a population exchange in the basin of the Oder and Vistula rivers in Late Antiquity/the Early Middle Ages.

    A comparative analysis of different skeletal populations from Central and Northern Europe, including the morphological features of the skull, has also shown that the populations of the Wielbark Culture, in some archaeological studies attributed to the Germanic groups (Goths?), shared a low biological similarity with the medieval populations from Germany or Scandinavia.

    To conclude, the results of anthropological studies do not confirm a thesis, proposed in some archaeological studies, about the discontinuation of settlement in the Oder and Vistula basins between Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages. On the contrary, they indicate that there was a considerable similarity between the biological populations inhabiting the basins of the Oder and Vistula rivers in the Roman Iron Age and the Middle Ages.

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    http://www.eaa2017maastricht.nl/download2456

    MIGRATION PERIOD BETWEEN ODRA AND VISTULA: NEW SOURCES, NEW IDEAS
    Author: Prof Bursche, Aleksander - University of Warsaw
    Co-Author: Dr Zapolska, Anna - University of Warsaw (Presenting author)
    Keywords: coins, Barbarians, imitations
    Presentation


    Brief results of 5-year Project „Migration Period between Odra and Vistula” realised by the international team will be presented in the context of new archeological and natural sciences data including pollen, radiocarbon, DNA or isotopic analysis. Transfer of technology from late Roman Empire to Barbaricum and political conflicts were the main reasons and mechanisms of the migration both to the South - Western Roman Empire and backwards to the North - Scandinavia. New sources from central and northern Poland testify continuation of settlement activity of elite character in so-call central places, emporia, logistic and power centers, having evident traces of Germanic character, until 7th c. AD. Undoubtedly we have to deal with German-Slavonic coexistence, what explains, between other, continuation of hydroniums (water names?), cf. Vistula.In the light of the most recent results we have to deal with relatively short hiatus from mid 7th until end of 8th century AD, when the first Scandinavian material appeared again at the southern Baltic coast. Perhaps we have to deal with survival in elite’s memory in the North (runs, sagas) relationship between inhabitants of Scandinavia and of the lower Danube/Ukraine region through lower Vistula territory? It could be a good explanation of the one of the most important direction of Varangians expansions on European continent.

    It's submitted twice with slightly different wording:

    THE MIGRATION PERIOD BETWEEN ODRA AND VISTULA: NEW SOURCES, NEW IDEAS

    Brief results of the 5-year Project “Migration Period between Odra and Vistula” realised by the international team will be presented in the context of new archeological and natural sciences data including pollen, radiocarbon, DNA and isotopic analysis. The transfer of technology from the late Roman Empire to Barbaricum and political conflicts were the main reasons and mechanisms of the migration to the South – to the Western Roman Empire and back North – to Scandinavia. New sources from central and northern Poland confirm the continuity of settlement activity of elite character in so-called central places, emporia, logistic and power centers, evidently of Germanic character, until 7th c. AD. It is safe to conclude that there was some Germanic-Slavonic coexistence, which would explain ia, the continuity of the use of hydronyms, eg, Vistula. In the light of the most recent results we need to recognize the existence of a relatively brief hiatus from mid 7th until end of 8th century AD, when the first Scandinavian material is observed once again on the southern Baltic coast. Perhaps this is evidence of the survival in the memory of the elites in the North (runes, sagas) of ties linking the inhabitants of Scandinavia with the regions of the Dnieper river in Ukraine via the lower Vistula region. This could be a good explanation of the one of the most important directions of Varangians expansions on the European mainland.
    Last edited by Panthalika; 2017-08-10 at 05:46.

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    Does it sound like back tailing from allochtonic theory? Like, hey guys, elites intermingles and changed, some locals rose to join them, maybe there were no elites for short period. Peasants and locals does not matter, let's not talk about them?
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    Does it sound like back tailing from allochtonic theory? Like, hey guys, elites intermingles and changed, some locals rose to join them, maybe there were no elites for short period. Peasants and locals does not matter, let's not talk about them?
    Ha! In Nomine Yassa on topic as usual

    Her uttering this takes real chutzpah. For an (alleged) German to lecture a Pole about the dangers of “racial science” requires either a moral blindspot the size of a mellon or a mildly revolting level of cynicism. But, as the Slavic parable goes, the man who screams “thief” and points at someone else, is usually the thief himself.

    What she says is that all this kind of stuff can prove is that there was a continuity of settlement – not a continuity of ethnic groups.

    Ok… let’s go with that, and then let’s review what German science tells us about the prehistory of Germania:

    “Germans” lived like the much later Slavs
    “Germans” were named like the much later Slavs
    “Germans” had funerary rites like the much later Slavs
    and now:

    Germans looked like the much later Slavs*
    (* note: the Germans that “looked” like Slavs are those from Poland and East Germany – as far as I know, no one has conducted similar studies in West Germany)

    Combine this with the fact that there are no (zero, nada) sources suggesting any Slavic migration into Germany.

    German conclusion:

    Germania was occupied by Germanics only and Slavs came into Germania much later.
    The illogic here is astounding.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Some maps of the similarity to Wielbark samples by lukaszM:

    Kowalewko_45:



    Kowalewko_25:




    So was Wielbark Culture traditionally atributed to Goths multiethnic?

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    New interview with Professor Figlerowicz (in Polish):

    Naukowcy szukają odpowiedzi, skąd pochodzą Polacy


    Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panthalika View Post
    New interview with Professor Figlerowicz (in Polish):

    Naukowcy szukają odpowiedzi, skąd pochodzą Polacy


    Any thoughts?
    No sparsely populated small villages lost in deep woods, but instead lively, teaming populations of North Central Euroes living in Wielkopolska AD 0-200. Cool. Now how does it play with populations of Poland AD 1000 and we have some clue.

    The good thing is that prof. Figlerowicz is not going with easy Y-DNA hype about Piasts' R1b and nicely explains we need deep-clade testing plus many different aDNAs scattered through time and geography to exclude extra-maritial event in Piast linage.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    No Y-chromosome haplogroups, but an interesting conclusion:

    Abstract: Despite the increase in our knowledge about the factors that shaped the genetic structure of the human population in Europe, the demographic processes that occurred during and after the Early Bronze Age (EBA) in Central-East Europe remain unclear. To fill the gap, we isolated and sequenced DNAs of 60 individuals from Kowalewko, a bi-ritual cemetery of the Iron Age (IA) Wielbark culture, located between the Oder and Vistula rivers (Kow-OVIA population). The collected data revealed high genetic diversity of Kow-OVIA, suggesting that it was not a small isolated population. Analyses of mtDNA haplogroup frequencies and genetic distances performed for Kow-OVIA and other ancient European populations showed that Kow-OVIA was most closely linked to the Jutland Iron Age (JIA) population. However, the relationship of both populations to the preceding Late Neolithic (LN) and EBA populations were different. We found that this phenomenon is most likely the consequence of the distinct genetic history observed for Kow-OVIA women and men. Females were related to the Early-Middle Neolithic farmers, whereas males were related to JIA and LN Bell Beakers. In general, our findings disclose the mechanisms that could underlie the formation of the local genetic substructures in the South Baltic region during the IA.
    "A mosaic genetic structure of the human population living in the South Baltic region during the Iron Age", Ireneusz Stolarek



    My U3a1 constitute 3/42 of these Wielbark samples, and all 3 belonged to females, what seems to be consistent with the relatively high cencentration of U3a in the Levant/Middle East and the fact that U3a was found in the Neolithic samples form Europe:

    Haplogroup U3 was present in Pre-Pottery and Early Neolithic Turkey, as well as in Chalcolithic Israel and Iran, and in Bronze Age Armenia, all regions that have high levels of U3 today. However, only a small minority of U3 has been found among the hundreds of Neolithic samples from Europe. Only six of them were identified so far, in the Starčevo culture in Hungary, the Linear Pottery culture (LBK) and the Salzmünde culture in Germany. Those whose subclade has been tested all belonged to U3a, including one U3a1. Overall haplogroup U3 showed up in less than 1% of the hundreds of Neolithic mtDNA tested. The small founding population of early agriculturalists that left Anatolia to colonise Europe may not have had much haplogroup U3 simply by chance. This is a typical founder effect.

    Haplogroup U3 has so far been absent from all Mediteranean or West European Neolithic samples. Nowadays U3 is not found in the Sardinian population, which is the best modern proxy for Mediteranean Neolithic farmers.

    The only oldest reported U3 sample in Mediteranean Europe (tested by Gomez-Sanchez et al. 2014) at the moment is an individual from the Burgos region in northern Spain dating from the late Chalcolithic period (2,400 BCE). However only the HVR1 region was tested for that sample and yielded a single mutation, which cannot confirm with 100% certainty that that individual was indeed U3.

    The presence of U3 in Spain 4,400 years ago could be attributed to a separate Neolithic expansion from the Levant or the Arabian peninsula reaching Iberia through North Africa. These would have been essentially goat herders belonging to Y-haplogroups J1 and T1a (see also Correlating the mtDNA haplogroups of the original Y-haplogroup J1 and T1 herders ).

    It is noteworthy that not a single U3 was identified among the numerous Bronze Age individuals tested from Europe and Central Asia, which strongly indicates that U3 was not found among the Indo-European invaders either. Its first appearance in eastern Europe after the Neolithic is a U3b Thracian sample from Bulgaria dated c. 800-500 BCE.

    U3a1 is an almost entirely European subclade, and has a coalescence age of approximately 5,000 to 7,000 years before present, suggesting a Neolithic expansion. U3b is the main Middle Eastern and Caucasian subclade. It is also found in Italy, central and eastern Europe, including among the Romani people (Gypsies).
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2018-02-06 at 13:14.

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