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Thread: The origin of Baltic-Finnic languages69 days old

  1. #1
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    Default The origin of Baltic-Finnic languages

    Theses:

    - linguists claim that Baltic-Finnic languages are from the Volga river region, from the are called Volga bent. This is true.
    - geneticists have not found even single ancient N1c samples from the Volga area, although the recent connection between Baltic-Finns and N1c is a widely accepted . True.
    - oldest N1c1 branches among Baltic-Finns and Balts are found from Finland and in neighboring area. Perhaps true.
    - linguistic theories are unanimous about the first home of Baltic-Finns, locating it to the eastern side of Estonia. True.
    - Baltic-Finnic languages, as well as Saami languages, own numerous ancient Germanic loan words. True.

    Conclusions:

    Baltic-Finnic languages, if they came from the Volga bent region, were not brought by people carrying N1c. Following ancient dna founds the best guess is R1a. N1c was an old local group in Finland, Estonia and Baltic regions. Languages of new R1a settlers coming from the east steppe superseded all old Baltic region languages, including Finland, regardless the new language group (IE or Baltic-Finnic).

    Southwestern Finland and eastern seasides of the Baltic Sea were populated by Germanic speaking I1. It was about 2000-3000YBP, so the linguist substitution took a while. In Finland Saami speakers (ydna unknown), who came from east following more northern route than Baltic-Finns (R1a), met Germanic speakers in Finland. The Baltic-Finnic invasion came to Finland from south AFTER the invasion in Estonia was completed, around 1700-1500 years ago.
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 2017-07-19 at 10:15.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

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    Molecular Biologist Rugevit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    . Languages of new R1a settlers coming from the east steppe superseded all old Baltic region languages, including Finland, regardless the language group (IE or Baltic-Finnic).
    Are you serious? Ancient DNA from Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania feature R1a1 and I2a entirely. The oldest R1a in eastern Europe is found in mesolithic Karelia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Are you serious? Ancient DNA from Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania feature R1a1 and I2a entirely. The oldest R1a in eastern Europe is found in mesolithic Karelia.
    You speak about Neolithic or older results. It looks like N1c came from northeast in the northern forest zone, but it didn't bring the Baltic-Finnic language. We have no ancient samples from Finland and some oldest recent N1c branches are found from Finland. This is contradicting with the linguist doctrine of the Volga bent origin and the Baltic-Finnic home area and doesn't connect it to N1c. It is also obvious that N1c in Lithuania is a result of a very late migration and has nothing to do with Baltic-Finnic language. This proves that the Lithuanian N1c1 is a younger branch of those old northern N1c-clades who still spoke unknown language. Just a note: Baltic-Finns are not older than 2500-3000 years, so there is enough time windows to create Baltic branches before Baltic-Finns stated to dominate in Estonia.
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 2017-07-19 at 10:46.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    You speak about Neolithic or older results. It looks like N1c came from northeast in the northern forest zone, but it didn't bring the Baltic-Finnic language. We have no ancient samples from Finland and some oldest recent N1c branches are found from Finland. This is contradicting with the linguist doctrine of the Volga bent origin and the Baltic-Finnic home area. It is also obvious that N1c in Lithuania is a result of a very late migration and has nothing to do with Baltic-Finnic language. This proves that the Lithuanian N1c1 is a younger branch of those old northern N1c-clades who still spoke unknown language. Just a note: Baltic-Finns are not older than 2500-3000 years, so there is enough time windows to create Baltic branches before Baltic-Finns stated to dominate in Estonia.
    I wrote about mesolithic in Karelia that had R1a which is around 9,000 years of age. Remains of person having N1c is 4,500 old in what's present day upper western Dvina river (Smolensk region - border of Belarus, Russia, Latvia). As I stated all ancient markers in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Karelia are R1a and I2a. N1c are new comers in the region. Everything else are your fantasies until proven otherwise using testing of ancient DNA.

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    Here a blog entry, randomly picked, but I am sure that I am not the only one modeling Baltic-Finnic history and the conclusion will be in most cases the same; Baltic Finnic genes didn't come from the Volga Bent, although linguistic footprints go there. What do we have after this conclusion?

    The Finnic peoples emerged in Baltic after the Bronze Age – Gene Expression
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 2017-07-19 at 10:56.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    I wrote about mesolithic in Karelia that had R1a which is around 9,000 years of age. Remains of person having N1c is 4,500 old in what's present day upper western Dvina river (Smolensk region - border of Belarus, Russia, Latvia). As I stated all ancient markers in Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Karelia are R1a and I2a. N1c are new comers in the region. Everything else are your fantasies until proven otherwise using testing of ancient DNA.
    Seems that you accept my thoughts. I repeat for for safety's sake. "Baltic-Finns are not older than 2500-3000 years, so there is enough time window to create Baltic N1c branches before Baltic-Finns started to dominate in Estonia." And also place for Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age R1a.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

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    Rugevit (2017-07-19)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Seems that you accept my thoughts. I repeat for for safety's sake. "Baltic-Finns are not older than 2500-3000 years, so there is enough time window to create Baltic N1c branches before Baltic-Finns started to dominate in Estonia." And also place for Mesolithic, Neolithic and Bronze Age R1a.
    Before Baltic Finnic arrived people of the region spoke dialects of Indo-European. Similar to pre-proto-Germanic or Balto-Slavic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Before Baltic Finnic arrived people of the region spoke dialects of Indo-European. Similar to pre-proto-Germanic or Balto-Slavic?
    It depends on the time era. IE-language likely appeared in Baltic areas from the Bronze Age. But linguists seem to be rather sure that there (in Scandinavia, Finland, NE Russia) still existed unknown languages, not spoken any more. So we can model this taking into account climate periods and see that there was in a vast area unknown people whose genes we still carry. They adopted Saami and Baltic-Finnic languages and captured some smaller IE-speakers too. My view is that if linguists know where Baltic-Finnic languages came from those bringers have to had belonged to R1a, because Finnish genes are too different to for example Mordva's genes. The Baltic-Finnic genes reach in the west Sweden, in the south Livonia, in the east Veps people and very weakly some Russian N1c1 rich populations (Kostroma for example), not enough to cluster together with them, but showing a weak connection.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Lemminkäinen For This Useful Post:

    Rugevit (2017-07-19)

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