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Thread: Golodomor/Holodomor [split] //mod788 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    This has nothing to do with collectivization, that was just the excuse, just like the ottoman excuse was "relocation".
    Then what it had to with given people of many ethnicities died during famine? Open a decent article and read what lead to the famine in 1932-1933.

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    Causes of Holodomor : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor


    A campaign of political repression, including arrests, deportations, and executions of better-off peasants and their families occurred from 1929 to 1932. The richer peasants were labeled kulaks and considered class enemies. More than 1.8 million peasants were deported in 1930–1931.[8][9][10] The stated purpose of the campaign was to fight the counter-revolution and build socialism in the countryside. This policy was accomplished simultaneously with collectivization in the Soviet Union and effectively brought all agriculture in the Soviet Union under state control.

    The "liquidation of the kulaks as a class" was announced by Stalin on December 27, 1929.[8] The decision was formalized in a resolution, "On measures for the elimination of kulak households in districts of comprehensive collectivization", on January 30, 1930. The kulaks were divided into three categories: those to be shot or imprisoned as decided by the local secret political police; those to be sent to Siberia, North, the Urals, or Kazakhstan, after confiscation of their property; and those to be evicted from their houses and used in labour colonies within their own districts.[8]

    The combination of the elimination of kulaks, collectivization, and other repressive policies contributed to mass starvation in many parts of Soviet Ukraine and the death of at least 7 to 10 million peasants in 1930–1937.[8]


    Last edited by Rugevit; 2017-07-26 at 18:43.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    You just prove my point that the intention was to kill "enemies of the state".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    You just prove my point that the intention was to kill "enemies of the state".
    It wasn't the point. The point was that all people of a particular social class were subjected to famine regardless of their ethnic backgrounds. Those Ukrainians who are most loud had ancestors living in Polish state in 1932-1933. Ancestors of Ukrainians who experienced famine lived in central & eastern Ukraine, and eastern Ukrainians are most pro-Russian today. USSR had a social class and not ethnocentric ideology. It's for this reason the ruling class and elite had different ethnic backgrounds in USSR. Jews, Germans, Ukrainians, Georgians, Armenians, Russians, Tatars, Poles, and others.

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    In 2010 the court of appeals in Kyiv found Joseph Stalin and other Bolshevik leaders guilty of genocide against the Ukrainians during Holodomor of 1932-1933.

    These are ethnicities of those who held highest positions in government responsible for artificial famine found by the court of appeals in Kyiv

    Joseph Stalin - Georgian born in Georgia
    Lazar Kaganovich - Jew born in Ukraine
    Stanisław Kosior - Pole born in Poland
    Pavel Postyshev - Russian born in Russia
    Vyacheslav Molotov - Russian born in Russia
    Vlas Chubar - Ukrainian born in Ukraine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    It wasn't the point. The point was that all people of a particular social class were subjected to famine regardless of their ethnic backgrounds.

    USSR had a social class and not ethnocentric ideology. It's for this reason the ruling class and elite had different ethnic backgrounds in USSR. Jews, Germans, Ukrainians, Georgians, Armenians, Russians, Tatars, Poles, and others.
    The reasons were POLITICAL not economical.

    Things are very simple:
    The Russian empire was multiethnic and when the oppressive Czarist regime collapsed so many of the Ethnicities in it wanted independence.

    You keep repeating the "social class" as if a farmer who opposed collectivization is a different social class from the one who accepted it.


    So if all these people fought against communism due to their Ethnicist/Nationalist motivations, isn't it logical that they were targeted for extermination based on the exact same criteria? ...
    When it is about the soviet union creating an artificial famine targeting the Ukrainians, it has to be "social class"...
    Why do you think that Stalin deported the Greeks from Georgia to Khazakstan? Because of "class reasons"???

    You are wrong.

    1 - Ethnographic map of Ukraine from 1900.



    2 - Map of the "Russian" civil war in 1920s



    3 - Map of the Holodomor



    Is it so hard to see that these maps fit???

    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Ancestors of Ukrainians who experienced famine lived in central & eastern Ukraine, and eastern Ukrainians are most pro-Russian today.
    No, you are wrong again.

    4 - Linguistic map of present day Ukraine



    Compare this to the ethnographic map from the 1900...
    The present day situation cannot explain the past, because things have changed significantly.
    Is it hard to see that a language shift means assimilation and/or migrations?

    I see clear patterns of Russification. Don't you?
    Last edited by ageladakos; 2017-07-27 at 13:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    The reasons were POLITICAL not economical.
    I see clear patterns of Russification. Don't you?
    The first map of 1900s reflects the dialects spoken as per one or two linguists rather than ethnic backgrounds. In fact in 1900s there was no ethnicity Ukrainian applied to ancestors of modern day Ukrainians as such . Ask any citizen of southern Russia he or she is a Ukrainian or their ancestors were identifying themselves Ukrainians, and you will know the response. Their ancestors were Russian Cossacks - Don Cossacks, Kuban Cossacks and Terek Cossacks living in southern Russia.

    Pontic Greeks, and many people of northern Caucasus , and Crimean Tatars , and Volga Germans were deported at the beginning or during WWII which was after Holodomor. They were deported because they were not trusted by the government that feared these peoples could join the German forces. So, you are all over the place again with maps.
    Last edited by Rugevit; 2017-07-27 at 13:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    The first map of 1900s reflects the dialects spoken as per one or two linguists rather than ethnic backgrounds. In fact in 1900s there was no ethnicity Ukrainian applied to ancestors of modern day Ukrainians as such . Ask any citizen of southern Russia he or she is a Ukrainian or their ancestors were identifying themselves Ukrainians, and you will know the response. Their ancestors were Russian Cossacks - Don Cossacks, Kuban Cossacks and Terek Cossacks living in southern Russia.
    100 years ago, these people spoke UKRAINIAN, now they speak RUSSIAN.
    What is this stupid arguement of "asking"??? The people who lost their language would tell me what??? that some 80 years ago they used to be proud Ukrainians??? are you even serious???
    Go "ask" any present day ethnic Ukrainian to tell you his view about the Russians.

    Also, the Cossack where the ones who fought for the Nazis.

    Nazi 1st Cossack Cavalry Division:

    1st Cossack Cavalry Brigade Don
    1st (Don) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    2nd (Ural) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    3rd (Sswodno) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    Cossack Horse Artillery Regiment Don

    2nd Cossack Cavalry Brigade
    4th (Kuban) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    5th (Don) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    6th (Terek) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    Cossack Horse Artillery Regiment Kuban

    Divisional units
    55th Reconnaissance Battalion
    55th (Kuban) Cossack Horse Artillery Regiment
    1st Cossack Engineer Battalion
    55th Cossack Engineer Battalion
    1st Signal Battalion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Pontic Greeks, and many people of northern Caucasus , and Crimean Tatars , and Volga Germans were deported at the beginning or during WWII which was after Holodomor. They were deported because they were not trusted by the government that feared these peoples could join the German forces. So, you are all over the place again with maps.
    What? Again you are wrong.
    Pontic Greeks that lived in Georgia were deported 5 years AFTER ww2 had ended.

    The Greeks of Kazakhstan are mainly the descendants of Pontic Greek who were deported there by Joseph Stalin, from southern Russia and the Caucasus region, at first the Crimean Greeks on 1944, under the resolution 5984 of June 2, 1944.[1] then the Caucasus (Georgia and Armenia) Greeks on June 1949, Feb 1950, Aug 1950.[2][3] The total number of deported persons was about 60,000 people.[4]

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    100 years ago, these people spoke UKRAINIAN, now they speak RUSSIAN.
    They didn't speak Ukrainian, as there was no Ukrainian language. Russian Cossacks spoke 'balatchka' (google it) that overlapped with dialects of eastern Malorosia - Donbass region today.

    What is this stupid arguement of "asking"??? The people who lost their language would tell me what??? that some 80 years ago they used to be proud Ukrainians??? are you even serious???
    Don Cossacks and Kuban Cossacks didn't loose the language spoken in what's today central or western Ukraine. Because they never spoke it.

    Go "ask" any present day ethnic Ukrainian to tell you his view about the Russians.
    There's a survey on views of ordinary Russians and Ukrainians towards each other. Their views are positive of each other despite recent fall out.

    Also, the Cossack where the ones who fought for the Nazis.

    Nazi 1st Cossack Cavalry Division:

    1st Cossack Cavalry Brigade Don
    1st (Don) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    2nd (Ural) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    3rd (Sswodno) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    Cossack Horse Artillery Regiment Don

    2nd Cossack Cavalry Brigade
    4th (Kuban) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    5th (Don) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    6th (Terek) Cossack Cavalry Regiment
    Cossack Horse Artillery Regiment Kuban

    Divisional units
    55th Reconnaissance Battalion
    55th (Kuban) Cossack Horse Artillery Regiment
    1st Cossack Engineer Battalion
    55th Cossack Engineer Battalion
    1st Signal Battalion
    Cossacks were a tiny fraction of the Russians who fought on the German side. I posted the URL link about collaborators in Russia during WWII.

    What? Again you are wrong.
    Pontic Greeks that lived in Georgia were deported 5 years AFTER ww2 had ended.The Greeks of Kazakhstan are mainly the descendants of Pontic Greek who were deported there by Joseph Stalin, from southern Russia and the Caucasus region, at first the Crimean Greeks on 1944, under the resolution 5984 of June 2, 1944.[1] then the Caucasus (Georgia and Armenia) Greeks on June 1949, Feb 1950, Aug 1950.[2][3] The total number of deported persons was about 60,000 people.[4]

    Crimean Creeks were also labeled as Pontic Greeks, who were deported in 1944 together with Crimean Tatars. Some Pontic Greeks were deported earlier in 1937-1938. Many Pontic Greeks of Caucasus were deported later probably together with Meskhetian Turks. It doesn't matter when they were deported when discussing what happened to people of USSR in 1932-1933 during Holodomor.

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    You want more about the Cossack ancestors of the "eastern Ukrainians"?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Republic

    "The Don Republic (Russian: Донская Республика, later known as the Almighty Don Host, or Russian: Всевеликое Войско Донское, Vsevelikoe Voisko Donskoe), was an independent self-proclaimed anti-Bolshevik republic formed by the Armed Forces of South Russia on the territory of Don Cossacks against another self-proclaimed Don Soviet Republic. The Don Republic existed during the Russian Civil War after the collapse of the Russian Empire from 1918 to 1920.

    The assembly of the Don Cossacks - the Krug - proclaimed the independence of the Don Republic on May 18, 1918. This occurred after the liquidation of the Bolshevik-controlled Don Soviet Republic in the territory of the Don Host Oblast on May 10, 1918.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_People%27s_Republic

    The Kuban People's Republic (Russian: Кубанская Народная Республика Kubanskaya Narodnaya Respublika; Ukrainian: Кубанська Народна Республiка Kubans'ka Narodna Respublika) was an anti-Bolshevik state that comprised the territory of the Kuban in the modern-day Russian Federation during the Russian Civil War.

    The republic was proclaimed by the Kuban Rada on January 28, 1918 and declared its independence on February 16. During its brief period of independence, it sought union with the Ukrainian People's Republic until the latter was occupied by Soviet forces. The Kuban People's Republic would include all territory of the former Kuban Oblast of the Russian Empire. It was crushed 7 November 1919 and existed for a period of 1 year 9 months.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NixYO View Post
    19 OT posts moved to the thread Golodomor/Holodomor [split] //mod. This thread is about The Winter War and The Continuation War.

    /Commissar
    Time to move one more :P

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