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Thread: Golodomor/Holodomor [split] //mod818 days old

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    Default Golodomor/Holodomor [split] //mod

    Quote Originally Posted by OldPretan View Post
    and Ukraine manages to have to "neo nazis" in charge who were put there by the Jews (although they also run the Kremlin somehow).
    Educate yourself by reading this.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

    It is absolutely normal for them to be "neo-nazis" because the soviets exterminated some 5-7 million of their population during peace-time, and then occupied them like the rest of eastern Europe for several decades, and then played their post-soviet mafia-style pseudopolitics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    Educate yourself by reading this.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

    It is absolutely normal for them to be "neo-nazis" because the soviets exterminated some 5-7 million of their population during peace-time, and then occupied them like the rest of eastern Europe for several decades, and then played their post-soviet mafia-style pseudopolitics.
    Holodomor was directed at social class rather than ethnicity. No less Russians , Kazakhs and other died from hunger during artificial famine of 1932-1933. The regions of USSR that had people living in rural areas relying on what they could produce on their land were most affected. Not to mention authorities that were responsible for Holodomor in Ukraine were native to Ukraine as per court case held in Ukraine. Holodomor has been a political instrument in recent years

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    What I also noticed is that western Ukrainians are most vocal about Holodomor, while their ancestors were unaffected because western Ukraine was part of Poland in 1932-1933. On the other hand, Eastern Ukrainians were most affected by Holodomor and today eastern Ukrainians are most pro-Russian. A bit irony here. The tragedy of Holodomor has been a political tool in the last 10 years or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    Educate yourself by reading this.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

    It is absolutely normal for them to be "neo-nazis" because the soviets exterminated some 5-7 million of their population during peace-time, and then occupied them like the rest of eastern Europe for several decades, and then played their post-soviet mafia-style pseudopolitics.
    Who are these mysterious Soviets you are talking about? Do you realize that Soviet elite was multi-ethnic and disproportionally (relative to their total population) Ukrainian?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Holodomor was directed at social class rather than ethnicity. No less Russians , Kazakhs and other died from hunger during artificial famine of 1932-1933. The regions of USSR that had people living in rural areas relying on what they could produce on their land were most affected. Not to mention authorities that were responsible for Holodomor in Ukraine were native to Ukraine as per court case held in Ukraine. Holodomor has been a political instrument in recent years
    If you ask any Turk, he will claim that there was no deliberate effort to exterminate Armenians... It was just relocation by marching them in the desert!

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    Quote Originally Posted by voron View Post
    Who are these mysterious Soviets you are talking about? Do you realize that Soviet elite was multi-ethnic and disproportionally (relative to their total population) Ukrainian?
    Who are they? The new communist bastards that replaced the Czarist bastards.
    Who do you think runs Russia, China, Bulgaria or any ex-communist country today?
    Some enlightened democrats that appeared after 1990? No, they are the same wolves with different sheepskins, a political mafia that after the communism collapse even stole all the public property from their own people and now are milio/bilioners while their people live in poverty.

    As for the multi-ethnic nature of the elite, it means absolute shit. How about the deportations of thousand Pontic Greeks from Georgia to Khazakstan? How about the Holodomor? How about the countless anti-soviet actions in eastern europe?
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East...t_insurgencies
    Can you even understand that so many of the "underhuman" Ukrainians fought for Germany?
    Ah, but it was "their own" oppressing them, right?. As if governments that were controlled by Moscow during the soviet imperialism represented the will of the occupied peoples...
    Last edited by ageladakos; 2017-07-26 at 15:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    If you ask any Turk, he will claim that there was no deliberate effort to exterminate Armenians... It was just relocation by marching them in the desert!
    Turks were killing Christians - Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and others. They targeted people of a particular religion. Soviet authorities induced artificial famine targeting a social class - those who refused collectivisation . Those who refused joining the Kolkhozs. There was no purpose in targeting a particular ethnicity in 1932-1933. Russians and people of northern Kazakhstan suffered no less. Authorities who were born and raised in Ukraine were responsible for Holodomor in Ukraine. Not some Muscovites who arrived to Ukraine to carry out the plan.


    The map of areas affected by artificial famine - eastern & central Ukraine, eastern & central Belarus, southern Russia, northern Kazakhstan. I can't give you the numbers off hand but I am guessing Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs collectively had more casualties than Ukraine. Map is from the site dedicated to Holodomor


    Last edited by Rugevit; 2017-07-26 at 15:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    The map of areas affected by artificial famine - eastern & central Ukraine, eastern & central Belarus, southern Russia, northern Kazakhstan. I can't give you the numbers off hand but I am guessing Russians, Belarusians, Kazakhs collectively had more casualties than Ukraine. Map is from the site dedicated to Holodomor

    Why is your map fitting this map so nicely?



    http://www.faminegenocide.com/kuryli...n_genocide.htm

    "After 250 years of Russian Tsarist rule, Ukrainians had tried to gain independence during the Russian Revolution and Civil War period (1917-1920). After a terrifying decade of war, revolution and attempts at independence, Ukraine became a part of the Soviet Union in 1922. To appease the Ukrainian population in the 1920’s. a certain amount of cultural and economic freedom was allowed and private enterprise permitted. As a result, a large number of successful independent farmers flourished in Ukraine. Alongside these developments, there was also unleashed a cultural renaissance in Ukraine, as writers, artists, and intellectuals flourished. Alas, these freedoms were not to last for long. Stalin saw both the farmers and the cultural freedoms as a threat to the newly formed Soviet Union. In the 1930’s, Joseph Stalin politically instigated and deliberately wiped out the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and its clergy, Ukraine’s writers, educators and cultural elite. The farmers, who constituted about 80 percent of Ukraine's population and who were resisting communism, were also dealt a mortal blow. They constituted about 1,500,000 of Ukraine’s population.

    Beginning in 1928 as part of The Five Year Plan (1928-1933), independent farmers were forced to give up to the state without compensation their private land, livestock, and equipment. The more well-to-do farmers, labelled as kurkuls (kulaks) and leaders in the villages, were targeted by the Soviet government as "anti-soviet, unwanted elements". They were systematically destroyed by deportations to Siberia, concentration camps, and or suffered firing squads.

    Once they were disposed of, the remaining farmers were dealt with. Any opposition to collectivization was met by brutal force as Secret Police (OGPU) and Red Army units were sent to villages to collect, not only the grain quota set by Moscow, but eventually any food found in individual households. The borders of Ukraine were sealed, so as to prevent any food imports. To ensure that Ukrainian farmers did not leave their villages to seek relief in the cities, the Soviet government instituted a system of passports so that no one could travel without permission. They executed those who tired to obtain food from the fields, and imprisoned those who attempted to flee to the cities or beyond Ukraine’s borders. Entire populations of villages died from induced starvation, one third blacklisted, cordoned off from supplies, for bringing in too little grain for the state In the meantime, wheat collected in government-owned bins was either sent abroad for export, rotted from mismanagement, or was used for the production of alcohol. To ensure compliance with the strategy of using "food as a weapon", and to minimize any sympathy for the suffering of the local population, Stalin replaced Ukrainians in key positions with non-Ukrainians in the Ukrainian Government. On the collective farms, those farmers who survived became little better than slave labourers, with few rights or privileges on land cultivated by their ancestors, which had served as the “breadbasket of Europe” for centuries before.
    "

    Why do you think that so many fought for the Nazis who in theory considered them "underhumans"?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_Co...valry_Division







    Where did these dudes come from?





    "oh shit, these ALSO fit your map"...

    Now you can try to tell me about how it was "blind" and "not targeted".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rugevit View Post
    Turks were killing Christians - Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and others. They targeted people of a particular religion. Soviet authorities induced artificial famine targeting a social class - those who refused collectivisation .
    1) Minorities that did not want to become "good ottomans" -> Systematic extermination
    2) Minorities that did not want to become "good proletariats" -> Systematic extermination

    This has nothing to do with collectivization, that was just the excuse, just like the ottoman excuse was "relocation".

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    Quote Originally Posted by ageladakos View Post
    Why is your map fitting this map so nicely?
    You are all over the place posting chunks of texts and maps irrelevant to the discussion for the reason of artificial famine in USSR in 1932-1933

    Soviet authorities targeted a social class who refused collectivisation in 1932-1933 irrespective of their ethnic backgrounds.

    If you want to discuss Soviet collaborators with Nazi, then ethnic Russians made the biggest number of them. Settlements of collaborators were in occupied areas by Wehrmacht

    It is estimated that anywhere between 600,000 and 1,400,000 Soviets (Russians and non-Russians) joined the Wehrmacht forces as Hiwis (or Hilfswillige) in the initial stages of the German Operation Barbarossa, ahead of the subsequent implementation of the more oppressive administrative methods by the SS. As much as 20% of the German manpower in Soviet Russia was composed of the former Soviet citizens. About half of them were ethnic Russians.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia...he_Axis_powers


    If you want to discuss which republics wanted to become independent from Soviets, then all governates from central Asia to Caucases, to Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic, Finland and Poland wanted independence after WWI ended. Even certain regions of Russia wanted independence from Soviet Russia during Russian civil war.
    Last edited by Rugevit; 2017-07-26 at 18:34.

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