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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans (Lazaridis et al. 2017)205 days old

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dohan. View Post
    Maniots are very close to Myceneans. Their Eurogenes show them as 10% more North European admixed than South Italians , the same is true for Eurogenes of some Ionian Islanders . This is either due to i) Slavic ancestry left behind by tribes like Ezirites and Melingoi but it's known Maniots purged the Taygetos from the Slavs or il) Dorian invasion and period from Myceneans to Classical Greece bringing an additional layer of North European admixture. Both are plausible , with Ancient DNA from Iron Age Greece would definitely help measuring the admixture process.
    Southern Italians also have about 15% Levant/North African type DNA in excess of Maniots and are, rather, more similar to Cretans and Aegean island Greeks. I think that if you removed whatever leftover Slavic exists in Mani, you'd still have some excess North European (and this might be related to the Dorians) as well as less Near Eastern input compared to Sicily or Crete.

    For what it is worth, I have seen people from Syracuse area in Sicily, and in Apulia, both of which had Doric colonies originating in the Peloponnese, with slightly elevated North European, and this supports that to me. Iron Age Greeks will likely be similar to Cyclades islanders to me, which basically are similar to Sicilians or Cretans but about 5% more North Euro and 5% less Near Eastern.

    But the big difference between Mycenaeans and modern Greeks are that the Mycenaeans had more Sardinian-like ancestry (EEF) and less BaltoSLavic/Steppe than modern Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reason1234 View Post
    What’s the reason for thinking that the additional steppe admixture in modern Greeks is only from Slavs, rather than from another earlier source?
    Slavs are the principal suspects without Ancient DNA , especially from Iron age and Byzantine you know.

    Who knows also , maybe Slavs , Avars and Arvanites flooding in pushed many North Greeks to migrate further south.

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    Balkans_IA seems to be quite close to the Mycenaeans, this is quite odd considering the fact that this sample is from Dzhulyunitsa in Northern Bulgaria:

    [1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
    Mycenaean Vucedol Italian_Tuscan Sicilian_East Italian_South
    4.095173 4.201369 4.474005 4.720314 4.776827
    Sicilian_West Greek Balkans_BA
    5.043716 5.059950 5.239375






    Using the same fit I used for the Mycenaeans:

    [1] "distance%=2.3559"

    Balkans_IA

    Minoan_Lasithi,74.2
    Balkans_BA:I2163,25.8


    ^^A very decent fit, the similarity is quite striking.

    This is what we can read about this sample in the supplement:

    • I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)
    Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in
    flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to
    SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper)
    ornaments smaller than 5 mm.


    So this individual was, in all likeliness, Thracian. Not some recent immigrant from the south. This will have some serious implications if this sample is representative of what the Thracians were like from a genetic vantage point, even though this is a single sample the overall pattern we see with the earlier Balkans_BA samples being relatively close to North Italians and Iberians and Sardinians means this is worthy of consideration. This might also have something to do with Armenoi.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; Today at 03:44.


    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    There basically seems to be a sort of Tollense-Hungary_BA-Balkan_BA-IA-Mycenaean cline in Eastern Europe at the time. Iberia_BA and the North Italian Beakers are even more towards the EEF-WHG side. Ancient Eastern and Southern Europe generally appears very EEF-WHG (the latter increasingly to the west and north, expectedly) heavy in general compared to more steppe-Caucasus today. There seems to have been more northern and eastern admixture later on compared to the latest samples we have, which isn't exactly unexpected, considering Urnfield, Hallstatt, the later migrations of Germanics and Slavs, ties with the Aegean-Anatolia-Levant-North Africa etc. The ANE is ever victorious.

    The Late Bronze Age Baltic sample is interesting too. Very heavy WHG ancestry still remaining in the area down to the 9th to 3rd centuries BC. They seem almost halfway between Corded Ware and the Hunter-Gatherer cline, very northern. Seems to speak to further admixture from more 'southern' parts since then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    So this individual was, in all likeliness, Thracian.
    Does that mean that Thracians were genetically close to Ashkenazi Jews?
    “The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.”
    ― Socrates

    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”
    ― Socrates

    “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
    ― Socrates

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    Quote Originally Posted by Power77 View Post
    Does that mean that Thracians were genetically close to Ashkenazi Jews?
    No.

    Mycenaeans and Thracians may have plotted in the same place on the PCA plot as modern southern Italians and Ashkenazim but their components via GEDMatch are very different. It is possible to plot in the same place, but have very different reasons for being there, and that is the case here.

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