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Thread: Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans (Lazaridis et al. 2017)353 days old

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    Why is it that sometimes the increased Sardinian type affinity (25% or so compared to a modern Sicilian or Cretan) shows up in Mycenaeans' results and other times it does not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    I would imagine it is similar to a modern person from Laconia/Mani area. It is definitely northward shifted compared to modern Cretans or southern Italians, and does seem to have elevated NE European affinity, but we have no idea if the NE European in modern Greeks is from that admixture event or if a later one, or both.

    But I do believe a NE European element higher than that of Mycenaeans existed in classical Greece and was spread to Sicily by Greek settlers, because the areas of higher Doric influence like southern Apulia, Syracuse, Ragusa today have a higher NE European element than what is normal for southern Italy -- though it is nowhere near that of modern Greeks.
    U think she"s Doric? Not to early early in time for Dorics to be that far south?

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    I have just discovered my old post from the EastPole thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wojewoda
    This is off-topic here, but Greeks look like Cypriots "invaded" by the people of the Vatya culture (while Cypriots look like a simple cross between Caucasus hunter-gatherers and Anatolian Neolithic farmers).
    The shift to cremation rather than interment around 1300 BC, gave archaeologists a name for the burgeoning Urnfield culture. The typical Urnfield burial used a urn to contain the ashes of the desceased, capped by an upturned bowl, set into a pit. The usage had spread over much of Europe by 1000 BC.

    Any type of cremation was uncommon earlier over most of Europe except the Carpathian Basin, where it appears among the Makó and Bell Beaker groups as early as c. 2700 to 2400 BC. So this region has often been considered the starting point for the Urnfield tradition. Two of the Middle Bronze Age cultures of Hungary favoured cremation, but only one of them placed a capped burial urn in a pit. That was the Vatya Culture of sheep-breeders living in the settlements along the Danube. These were well-placed for trading, as well as having good grazing land nearby. So the idea could easily have travelled up the Danube to the trading nexus at its head. From there it spread west and north into Germany and Poland and south into Italy. Finally it moved into France and part of Spain. There was also a transition to cremation burial in Scandinavia and the British Isles in the Late Bronze Age, but without the vast cemeteries of Continental Europe.


    And an EastPole's PCA plot which inspired my comment:



    What was happening in this Hungarian Bronze Age:

    Quote Originally Posted by Litvin
    Modeling Slavs as mixtures of >100 ancients:

    I'm using the same settings, parameters and the same >100 ancient samples in every run. One consistent pattern is that Hungarian BA and Lithuanian BA samples show up all the time:
    ?
    Last edited by Wojewoda; 2017-08-18 at 20:07.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arch Hades View Post
    As long as you don't think those Chalcolithic to Bronze Age Armenians spoke Armenian or Greco-Armenian that works. But it does seem they spoke some Indo-European language if you are a steppe hypothesis guy..because they have bloated EHG ancestry compared to prehistoric Caucasus Hunter Gatherers.
    It's not really known when exactly the Armenian language was introduced in Anatolia, because the Armenian language was first attested/documented in the Christian era, but obviously it was around in the region centuries or even a millennia or so, before that. But Indo-European speaking proto-Armenians must have come to Armenia after the proto-Greeks settled in the Aegean, I don't think they were earlier than the proto-Greeks, if anything because the Armenian language is a satem language.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Speaking of modern variation, here are the closest modern populations using K7:

    Spoiler: 
    Mycenaean:I9006
    Italian_South:average 1.431126
    Maltese:average 2.194544
    Ashkenazi_Jew:average 2.552175
    Italian_Sicilian_East:average 2.616174
    Sephardic_Jew:average 4.763203
    Italian_Abruzzo:average 5.616298
    Italian_Sicilian_West:average 6.490500
    Cypriot:average 10.010481


    Mycenaean:I9010
    Maltese:average 6.195196
    Italian_South:average 6.866073
    Italian_Sicilian_West:average 7.000454
    Italian_Sicilian_East:average 7.073132
    Italian_Abruzzo:average 9.028128
    Ashkenazi_Jew:average 10.193087
    Italian_Tuscan:average 10.692131
    Sephardic_Jew:average 10.953776


    Mycenaean:I9041
    Maltese:average 1.605217
    Italian_South:average 1.822221
    Italian_Sicilian_East:average 3.013514
    Ashkenazi_Jew:average 5.205052
    Italian_Sicilian_West:average 5.670875
    Italian_Abruzzo:average 6.182375
    Sephardic_Jew:average 6.460924
    Greek:average 11.623547


    Mycenaean:average
    Maltese:average 1.931925
    Italian_South:average 2.445088
    Italian_Sicilian_East:average 3.234122
    Italian_Sicilian_West:average 5.438001
    Ashkenazi_Jew:average 5.857445
    Italian_Abruzzo:average 6.236865
    Sephardic_Jew:average 7.067310
    Albanian:average 11.347803


    Crete_Armenoi:I9123
    Greek:average 2.657053
    Albanian:average 3.003041
    Italian_Sicilian_West:average 4.183243
    Italian_Abruzzo:average 4.438611
    Italian_Tuscan:average 4.955781
    Italian_Sicilian_East:average 7.354402
    Bulgarian:average 7.578100
    Macedonian:average 8.141017

    Interesting, seems like the Mycenaeans were quite the wogs So the proto-Greeks basically only exerted a linguistic elite dominance effect on the Aegean?
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Interesting, seems like the Mycenaeans were quite the wogs
    And at considerable genetic difference to the modern Hellenized Slavs ("Greeks") living throughout much of Greece today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    And at considerable genetic difference to the modern Hellenized Slavs ("Greeks") living throughout much of Greece today.
    Well modern Greeks certainly are descended from them, albeit there's some Slavic admixture among Greeks of today. I've seen a number of Greek immigrants here in Sweden, some of them look very woggy (black hair, dark brown eyes and so on), others look quite northern European (light hair color, blue eyes etc.), but it's interesting nonetheless, that the Mycenaeans match so well with Sicilians, Maltese and Jews. This can only mean that the amount of Yamnaya admixture they carried back then, was quite minimal.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Well modern Greeks certainly are descended from them, albeit there's some Slavic admixture among Greeks of today. I've seen a number of Greek immigrants here in Sweden, some of them look very woggy (black hair, dark brown eyes and so on), others look quite northern European (light hair color, blue eyes etc.), but it's interesting nonetheless, that the Mycenaeans match so well with Sicilians, Maltese and Jews. This can only mean that the amount of Yamnaya admixture they carried back then, was quite minimal.
    It could depend on which Greek regions. Anatolian and Pontic Greeks are certainly more like Armenians and neighboring populations in Anatolia. Aegean islanders are basically the same -- genetically and phenotypically -- as Sicilians. But the mainlanders have the Slavic input.

    Sicilians and Maltese are more or less a fairly well preserved Eastern Mediterranean population, and Mycenaeans would've been similar. The area I disagree with some is that this similarity reflects ancient Greek admixture in Sicily, as I think it was minimal and that, rather, both populations shared common roots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    All of the ~35% WHG in Yamnaya is bona fide Villabruna-related ancestry, because EHG is not the result of a population simply branching off and drifting away from a common ancestor with WHG, but the result of very recent (Holocene) introgression of AG3 admixture in Eastern Europe, onto a substrate of basically pure WHG.
    What's AG3 admixture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    Also, not all of the ANE-type ancestry in Yamnaya came from EHG, but from the CHG.
    So the ANE component had spread into the Caucasus before Indo-Europeans? Is it reasonable to assume, that the ANE component in Assyrians (and Armenians), came from a CHG tribe and not from R1b proto-Indo-Europeans? Because Armenians/Assyrians carry around 30% R1b and something like 13% ANE, but very little WHG and are notably low on the northern European component, so I believe ANE from CHG could be a reasonable source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simi View Post
    Yamnaya can be broken down into (roughly) 35% WHG + 35% ANE by proxy of EHG, and an additional 15% ANE + 15% 'Basal-rich' from the CHG. Basal-rich appears to be an Upper Paleolithic proto-Near Eastern composite population of both Basal Eurasian and something more traditionally Eurasian deriving ultimately from the same lineage which had mixed with Neanderthals and later evolved into East Asians, European hunter-gatherers, etc.
    Please elaborate on this Upper Paleolithic proto-Near Eastern stuff, sounds intriguing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Given Greek's position in the IE language tree, it's extremely unlikely EHG arrived in Greece from Anatolia and the Caucasus before that, if we were talking about the Proto-Anatolians then I'd understand, but this strikes me as special pleading TBH.
    Could you elaborate what you mean by Greek's position in the IE language tree?

    Also, would you agree with @Jaska when he said Greek is the most conservative IE language?
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Interesting, seems like the Mycenaeans were quite the wogs So the proto-Greeks basically only exerted a linguistic elite dominance effect on the Aegean?
    No joke, they do not even remotely qualify as a European population, no matter which definition of Europe you use in population genetics (Reich and Lazaridis' or basal admixture). That being said, there is no need to invoke elite dominance, we have a set of samples from Salamis to Messenia (including a high-status burial) that have more or less the same genetic profile, and this profile is essentially Minoan-like + ~17% Steppe_LMBA on average.

    So there really is no need to focus on Armenoi (clearly an outlier at this stage), the Steppe admixture is uniformly present amongst the Mycenaeans, so we're obviously dealing with an actual migration from the steppe which had a very significant demographic impact.

    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Could you elaborate what you mean by Greek's position in the IE language tree?

    Also, would you agree with @Jaska when he said Greek is the most conservative IE language?
    Proto-Greek branched off a continuum of late PIE dialects, this continuum presumably included pre-Proto-Iranian, pre-Proto-Armenian and pre-Proto-Balto-Slavic. In other words, the population which initially brought EHG to Greece during the 2nd millennium BCE could only have resembled Corded Ware.

    I both agree and disagree with Jaska here, morphologically-speaking you'll hear no argument from me, Greek most definitely is a very conservative Indo-European language (not the most conservative however), in terms of vocabulary however there clearly is a pervasive non-IE substratum.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2018-01-22 at 01:19.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tauromenion View Post
    Sicilians and Maltese are more or less a fairly well preserved Eastern Mediterranean population, and Mycenaeans would've been similar.
    "well-preserved Eastern Mediterranean population" needs some elaboration, however, since they weren't all exactly the same either. We know the Mycenaeans were very high in Anatolian Neolithic ancestry and had considerable Iran Neolithic type of admixture and ancient Sicily will quite possibly be similar overall. So with that as a starting assumption, modern Sicily (and Malta) on the other hand seems to have considerable ancestry from populations heavy in Levantine Neolithic that replaced a decent chunk of the local ancestry. Anatolia and Levant Neolithic are of course closer in distance than Anatolia Neolithic and steppe are*** but it doesn't mean that there has been less admixture in Sicily (excepting the possibility of some different Neolithic-Bronze Age stream reaching the island already), just that it was overall more Near Eastern as opposed to overall more Northeast European as in Greece. And I say "overall more" in both cases since Sicilians too seem to have some extra steppe, though of an apparently more western (Italo-Celtic?) source, and mainland Greeks (at least the more southern ones) seem to have some extra Near Eastern ancestry compared to the Mycenaean samples. Sicilians imo don't seem to be able to be modelled with much more Mycenaean-like ancestry (i.e. our best currently available proxy for Bronze Age Southeast Europe, along with some Hungary_BA samples) than mainland Greeks overall, despite being less distant due to their different subsequent admixture.

    ***As Duwa mentioned and Lazaridis pointed out in his MHAAM video presentation, the Minoans and Myceaneans basically bridged the gap between Europe and Near East, like modern Southeast Europeans (Italians, Albanians and Greeks) and European Jews do, though the moderns in a somewhat different way - less Anatolia Neolithic, more steppe and Near East (Iran-Levant) in different proportions and so in a more ANE direction. Though I'm curious what Duwa meant with the "Reich and Lazaridis' or basal admixture" definitions. I don't recall those after all these papers...

    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    So there really is no need to focus on Armenoi (clearly an outlier at this stage), the Steppe admixture is uniformly present amongst the Mycenaeans, so we're obviously dealing with an actual migration from the steppe which had a very significant demographic impact.

    Proto-Greek branched off a continuum of late PIE dialects, this continuum presumably included pre-Proto-Iranian, pre-Proto-Armenian and pre-Proto-Balto-Slavic. In other words, the population which initially brought EHG to Greece during the 2nd millennium BCE could only have resembled Corded Ware.

    I both agree and disagree with Jaska here, morphologically-speaking you'll hear no argument from me, Greek most definitely is a very conservative Indo-European language (not the most conservative however), in terms of vocabulary however there clearly is a pervasive non-IE substratum.
    I agree on the general linguistic associations as in a previous post - a centum language that shares the most isoglosses and many innovations with Armenian and Indo-Iranian so likely a "mid-splitter", so to speak. Similarly the pre-Greek substratum shows that the pre-IE population had a much more considerable impact than in parts of Northern Europe where substrata still seem to exist but in much more limited form.

    Along the lines of what Wojewoda wrote, the Mycenaean population basically seems to be a more "genetically southern" type of a Hungary_BA population so something Corded Ware or Bell Beaker like admixing into a local Anatolia-Iran Minoan-like population is probably the case anyway but the (really) specifics are still hard to pin down imo, especially with no non-J2a Y-DNA so far, even with these linguistic considerations in mind.

    Also, while I get your point there, I wouldn't discount the Armenoi sample at least as far as population structure during the Bronze Age goes. I have a feeling we might see much more population structure with more samples that will likely collapse post Dark Ages causing somewhat higher but more even levels of steppe ancestry. After all, the Armenoi girl was all the way down in Crete even if a recent migrant from the Peloponnese, and has about double the steppe the Peloponnesean samples have while the only elite burial we currently have was a woman, which overall decreases the chances of higher steppe ancestry for obvious reasons. It's not a huge difference considering the small levels in the other Mycenaeans in the first place but it's still a big difference for the same geographical area. We see a similar pattern in the rest of Europe in this period of great mobility and disturbance with samples from a single location being quite varied in their ancestral proportions, like in Hungary or the rest of the Balkans.

    The outlier also makes a scenario for the arrival from Anatolia for Greek, i.e. an Armenia_BA-like scenario as Lazaridis et al. mentioned in their paper too, much less likely than a Balkan one imo so it's interesting that way too. (That being said one Armenia_BA sample - I think it was RISE397 - does seem to have some weird affinities to modern southeast Europe in some non-formal analyses compared to the modern Caucasus and Armenia but I'm not entirely sure what it'd necessarily mean either way at this stage)

    Then you have other sorts of populations like the colonies in Asia Minor that, based on their classical anthroponymy and historical accounts, should be basically (post-)Mycenaean-Anatolia_BA/CA mixes unless something surprising comes up. When you start thinking about it, we're still really in the dark about more nuanced issues.
    Last edited by DDBG; 2018-01-22 at 09:54.

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