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Thread: The emerging picture from Chalcolithic/Bronze Age West & Central Eurasia thanks to ancient DNA761 days old

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    Default The emerging picture from Chalcolithic/Bronze Age West & Central Eurasia thanks to ancient DNA

    This is based in part on yet to be published aDNA from Central and South Asia (think BMAC and Harappa). So with that in mind, any thoughts? Is it missing any crucial details?


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    Fascinating topic!

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    This is based in part on yet to be published aDNA from Central and South Asia (think BMAC and Harappa).
    Has Iran_Chl-type admixture been found in the samples?

    So with that in mind, any thoughts? Is it missing any crucial details?

    Well, I think you're right as far as the general picture is of concern. That is, the simultaneous spread during the Chalcolithic-EBA period of Steppe admixture in Northwest Eurasia and Iran_Chl admixture (or something close to it) in Southwest Asia and the Indian subcontinent. In turn, the former is very much tied to the spread of Indo-European languages and Y-DNA R1, that's basically undeniable at this stage.

    As far as the spread of Iran_Chl (and Y-DNA haplogroup J?) is of concern, the situation is bound to be more complex in my opinion. For instance, while I suspect you're using "proto/early urban dwellers" loosely, it cannot account entirely for what we're seeing here, in fact the expansion which most closely resembles what we're seeing in Europe is the expansion of Semitic speakers. Proto-Semitic and PIE both seem to have been roughly contemporary (Common IE unity dates back to the second half of the 5th millennium BCE while Common Semitic unity dates back to the first half of the 4th millennium BCE), the earliest Semitic and Indo-European speakers also were nomadic pastoralists (this is quite clear going off our reconstructions of PS and PIE language & culture).

    As I'm sure you know by now, the paternal lineage that most closely tracks the spread of Semitic languages is J1-P58 (its branches, in particular), which is surprising since J1 was undoubtedly linked to the spread of Iran_Chl-type admixture (initially at the very least) and is therefore unlikely to have been present among the Proto-Afroasiatic language community (the different branches of E-M35.1 are more convincing contenders here). Nevertheless, what seemingly distinguishes the earliest Semitic-speaking populations from other AA-speaking groups so far is the presence of Iran_Chl admixture in the former, this admixture probably arrived in the Southern Levant (where the PS homeland was subsequently located) during the Late Neolithic or Early Chalcolithic period, upcoming Chalcolithic data from Israel (Peqi'in) will probably shed light on this. In other words, in large parts of SW Asia and even in Africa Iran_Chl-admixture probably arrived with early Semitic-speaking nomadic pastoralists carrying branches of Y-DNA haplogroup J1-P58, in fact two of the Ancient Egyptian samples carried J lineages that were also found in the Jordan_EBA samples and the Bronze Age Sidonians (J1-Z2324 and J2b1-M205).

    If we take the above into account, "proto/early urban dwellers" sounds like a relatively poor label, at least as far as lineages like J1-YSC234 and J2b1-M205 are of concern (though I could be wrong on this as well). If we're talking about the numerous branches of J2a-M410 however, you might well be absolutely right. Either way, the sheer amount of linguistic diversity that shows up in the epigraphic record by the Early Bronze Age in the area where Iran_Chl admixture spread out prevents us from proposing a straightforward association between this kind of admixture and a given language group, unless we're talking about very specific expansions (like that of the Proto-Semites), keep in mind that a genetic relationship between Sumerian, Kassite, Hurro-Urartian, Hattic-Kaskian and Gutian is anything but obvious and while a link between some of these languages and Caucasian families is convincing it has yet to be demonstrated.
    Last edited by Semitic Duwa; 2017-08-19 at 02:33.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Has Iran_Chl-type admixture been found in the samples?
    Yep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Yep.
    Fascinating stuff, truth be told a link between this and the arrival of J2a-M410 (and some minor branches of J1-M267) in the Indian subcontinent is quite tempting.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
    Morocco is a western lapdog.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Semitic Duwa View Post
    Fascinating stuff, truth be told a link between this and the arrival of J2a-M410 (and some minor branches of J1-M267) in the Indian subcontinent is quite tempting.
    Do you have an idea of what could have been the language(s) spoken by such folks?

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