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Thread: Tollensee: 4000-warrior battle 1300 BC in Northern Germany337 days old

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Finnish Bronze Age swords, lengths 62-70 cm.





    Daggers were ofcourse shorter

    All these sword look like needles, and thus I am sure they are thrusting not swinging weapons. Check the youtube clip i attached, they show the real size of these "needles". Their length just gave better distance to the opponent, not the swinging capability imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    All types usually used by Finnish I1-men during BA.
    What is the oldest I1 attested in Finland?
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Lemminkäinen (2018-03-10)

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  4. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post

    What is the oldest I1 attested in Finland?
    We have small amounts of old Saxon and younger Scandinavian clades, but the biggest clade (L287) is solely Finnish and TMRCA is calculated to be 1850-1900 years, but the nearest upper stream clade (CTS2208) is 2900-3000 years old (TMRCA) and the Finnish clade age can be anything between. Yfull gives a clade age 3000 years for L287, so they were very likely in Finland or very near already during the Bronze Age. Additionally we have another clade (L300) probably Finnish, a smaller one, which is dated 2300 BP (TMRA).
    Last edited by Lemminkäinen; 2018-03-10 at 20:47.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

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    Pioterus (2018-03-10)

  6. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    We have small amounts of old Saxon and younger Scandinavian clades, but the biggest clade (L287) is solely Finnish and TMRCA is calculated to be 1850-1900 years, but the nearest upper stream clade (CTS2208) is 2900-3000 years old (TMRCA) and the Finnish clade age can be anything between. Yfull gives a clade age 3000 years for L287, so they were very likely in Finland or very near already during the Bronze Age. Additionally we have another clade (L300) probably Finnish, a smaller one, which is dated 2300 BP (TMRA).
    OK, fully aware I continue this as offtop, yet I need to ask that one. Is there anything in aDNA in Northern Europe for I1's? I know Genetiker "found" one in Mesolithic sample, anything else?
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    Really? I thought this developement came later with iron smelting and Hallstatt swords (first longswords in history) so some 500 years later. Urnfield culture boasted incredible 85cm of length max, usually falling between 60-75cm range.
    It isn't an area I'm particularly knowledgeable or interested in but from what I recall, they first appear during the Middle Bronze Age and generally have associations with the Carpathian Basin and close-by areas and spread relatively fast from there to Northern Europe and the Aegean.

    The older Foltiny - "Flange-hilted Swords of Bronze in Central Europe" and Cowen - "The Origins of the Flange-hilted of Bronze in Contentintal Europe" are still good references, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    OK, fully aware I continue this as offtop, yet I need to ask that one. Is there anything in aDNA in Northern Europe for I1's? I know Genetiker "found" one in Mesolithic sample, anything else?
    Nothing promising have been found so far. I wouldn't connect I1 to the Mesolithic era, we need new finds to see. The I1 expansion is sure Bronze Age and not of Scandinavian origin, although it was an expansion area because there was more "lebensraum".
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

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    Pioterus (2018-03-11)

  11. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    Nothing promising have been found so far. I wouldn't connect I1 to the Mesolithic era, we need new finds to see. The I1 expansion is sure Bronze Age and not of Scandinavian origin, although it was an expansion area because there was more "lebensraum".
    This is the thing I find strange, where the I1 did hide, from where did it expand into Nordics and how old would it be a founder effect.
    I2a-L621 wasn't half that "annoying" as it was quite clear all the clades are pretty young and exploded recently. Source was found and cool, we at least know something.
    I1 - still in the stage of modern distribution guesstimation.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

  12. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    This is the thing I find strange, where the I1 did hide, from where did it expand into Nordics and how old would it be a founder effect.
    I2a-L621 wasn't half that "annoying" as it was quite clear all the clades are pretty young and exploded recently. Source was found and cool, we at least know something.
    I1 - still in the stage of modern distribution guesstimation.
    I second that. We have too few aDna samples. One I1 is from Neolithic Hungary and one from Mesolithic Scandinavia. Until now we haven't clear picture of the origin of I1. I can say that the expansion happened during the Bronze Age, which is nothing to wonder, because it was the time of expansion of many ydna haplogroups in Europe. Conversely to the eastern I2, the I1 expanded first to Germany, Scandinavia and Finland. We don't know the situation in Estonia and Latvia because we have not adequate present-day data from these countries. It looks like they were first seafarers in the Baltic Sea region, otherwise it is challenging to explain that old expansion.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

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  14. #128
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    Das bronzezeitliche Schlachtfeld im Tollensetal - Krieg, Fehde oder Elitenkonflikt? In: H. Meller/M. Schefzik (Hrsg.), Krieg - Eine archäologische Spurensuche. Begleitband zur Sonderausstellung.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...derausstellung

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    Abstract from a talk at forthcoming:
    http://smbe2018.jp/mobile_app.html

    To illustrate the power of our framework, we studied the diversity among soldiers from a colossal Bronze-age battlefield in northern Europe at the banks of the Tollense River in northern Germany. Our findings suggest that these soldiers, while from a large geographic area, likely represented a single ethnic group.
    Was Kossinna right after all?

  16. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skomand View Post
    Abstract from a talk at forthcoming:
    http://smbe2018.jp/mobile_app.html



    Was Kossinna right after all?
    In what regard?
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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