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Thread: Tollensee: 4000-warrior battle 1300 BC in Northern Germany12 days old

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    Default Tollensee: 4000-warrior battle 1300 BC in Northern Germany

    http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/...nze-age-battle
    http://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.d...se-battle.html

    “There’s nothing to compare it to.” It may even be the earliest direct evidence—with weapons and warriors together—of a battle this size anywhere in the ancient world."

    “If our hypothesis is correct that all of the finds belong to the same event, we’re dealing with a conflict of a scale hitherto completely unknown north of the Alps,” says dig co-director Thomas Terberger, an archaeologist at the Lower Saxony State Service for Cultural Heritage in Hannover. “There’s nothing to compare it to.” It may even be the earliest direct evidence—with weapons and warriors together—of a battle this size anywhere in the ancient world.

    Northern Europe in the Bronze Age was long dismissed as a backwater, overshadowed by more sophisticated civilizations in the Near East and Greece. Bronze itself, created in the Near East around 3200 B.C.E., took 1000 years to arrive here. But Tollense’s scale suggests more organization—and more violence—than once thought. “We had considered scenarios of raids, with small groups of young men killing and stealing food, but to imagine such a big battle with thousands of people is very surprising,” says Svend Hansen, head of the German Archaeological Institute’s (DAI’s) Eurasia Department in Berlin. The well-preserved bones and artifacts add detail to this picture of Bronze Age sophistication, pointing to the existence of a trained warrior class and suggesting that people from across Europe joined the bloody fray.


    The number suggests the scale of the battle. “We have 130 people, minimum, and five horses. And we’ve only opened 450 square meters. That’s 10% of the find layer, at most, maybe just 3% or 4%,” says Detlef Jantzen, chief archaeologist at MVDHP. “If we excavated the whole area, we might have 750 people. That’s incredible for the Bronze Age.” In what they admit are back-of-the-envelope estimates, he and Terberger argue that if one in five of the battle’s participants was killed and left on the battlefield, that could mean almost 4000 warriors took part in the fighting.

    At the time of the battle, northern Europe seems to have been devoid of towns or even small villages. As far as archaeologists can tell, people here were loosely connected culturally to Scandinavia and lived with their extended families on individual farmsteads, with a population density of fewer than five people per square kilometer. The closest known large settlement around this time is more than 350 kilometers to the southeast, in Watenstedt. It was a landscape not unlike agrarian parts of Europe today, except without roads, telephones, or radio.

    And yet chemical tracers in the remains suggest that most of the Tollense warriors came from hundreds of kilometers away. The isotopes in your teeth reflect those in the food and water you ingest during childhood, which in turn mirror the surrounding geology—a marker of where you grew up. Retired University of Wisconsin, Madison, archaeologist Doug Price analyzed strontium, oxygen, and carbon isotopes in 20 teeth from Tollense. Just a few showed values typical of the northern European plain, which sprawls from Holland to Poland. The other teeth came from farther afield, although Price can’t yet pin down exactly where. “The range of isotope values is really large,” he says. “We can make a good argument that the dead came from a lot of different places.”

    Further clues come from isotopes of another element, nitrogen, which reflect diet. Nitrogen isotopes in teeth from some of the men suggest they ate a diet heavy in millet, a crop more common at the time in southern than northern Europe.

    As University of Aarhus’s Vandkilde puts it: “It’s an army like the one described in Homeric epics, made up of smaller war bands that gathered to sack Troy”—an event thought to have happened fewer than 100 years later, in 1184 B.C.E. That suggests an unexpectedly widespread social organization, Jantzen says. “To organize a battle like this over tremendous distances and gather all these people in one place was a tremendous accomplishment,” he says.
    Ancient DNA could potentially reveal much more: When compared to other Bronze Age samples from around Europe at this time, it could point to the homelands of the warriors as well as such traits as eye and hair color. Genetic analysis is just beginning, but so far it supports the notion of far-flung origins. DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia. “This is not a bunch of local idiots,” says University of Mainz geneticist Joachim Burger. “It’s a highly diverse population.”
    Question: What more might we learn from genetic analysis and guess about culture and language?

    Here is one speculation: the caravan theory
    This is what I think happened in Tollense valley. A caravan transporting large quantities of tin and other metals was moving from Laba (Elbe) valley, probably from a harbor or a large settlement. The metal came from Silesia, the area around Ore mountain. The caravan had many people, traders and other travelers and many pack animals. It moved along Tollense river, then along Peene river towards Oder river, probably towards another harbor or a settlement. Of it could have been moving in the opposite direction. The caravan was protected by armed guard which consisted of both horsemen and infantrymen. These soldiers were either traveling with the caravan from Silesia or were assigned to the caravan at a port somewhere in Laba (Elbe) valley. This was a normal practice since the first caravans started crisscrossing the world. One of the most important duties of any country was always to protect its roads and in this way allow free movement of people and goods. These guards were armed with bronze weapons: arrows with bronze arrowheads, bronze spears, axes, swords, daggers...In Silesia bronze was common and cheep so it is to be expected that the Silesians were armed with bronze weapons. The caravan was attacked by a gang or even a small marroding army which probably came from the north west, probably from the Jutland peninsula or even further north or from across Laba (Elbe) river. These people were armed with more primitive weapons, arrows with flint arrowheads, wooden spears and wooden clubs. Denmark and Sweden have huge flint deposits so it is quite possible that the attackers came from there. The attackers, who probably outnumbered the people in the caravan, waited hidden for the caravan to appear and launched a surprised attack from the forest which surrounded the river. They first pelted the caravan with arrows, targeting the mounted soldiers first. This is why we have dead people mixed with dead horses. Remember the clustered bronze arrowheads mixed with human and horse bones? Were they the arrows which the horsemen never got to take out of their quivers? I believe that the arrows with the bronze arrowheads were fired by mounted archers. The proof for that is the bronze arrowhead which was found embedded in a scull. This arrowhead could only have been fired from a position above the head, which would indicate that the archer was on a horseback. Also the flint arrowhead which was found embedded in a humerus (upper arm) bone is embedded under such angle that the shot must have come from below, meaning that the arrow was fired by a foot soldier shooting a mounted warrior. Anyway what happened then was the attackers sprayed all the other people from the caravan with arrows. The arrows were fired from the other side too. Then the frontal assault ensued which resulted in hand to hand battle. Who won? That is difficult to say. It is most probable that the attackers won. The number of dead would suggest that this is what happened. The attackers killed all the people from the caravan, collected all the metal, metal armor and weapons and other valuables and remaining pack animals and returned back to wherever they came from. Whatever was left on the scene is whatever they missed. They left all the dead Silesians where they fell. They maybe even left their own dead at the scene if their losses were great, or they could have carried their dead with them or burned them and carried the ashes or buried the ashes somewhere in the area.
    The invasion theory:
    Why do you refuse a version of invasion? I suppose the attackers could be invaders. 13th century BC is the final stage of Bronze Age. After 1200 BC happens the Bronze Age collapse. The Iron Age starts. The large changes come over the life of the people. At this time Egypt is subjected the Sea Peoples' numerous invasions. At this time Hittite Empire has fallen. These days are time of Dorian invasion in Greece, and time of vanishing of other Mediterranean states and nations. All of these ancient states used bronze, and therefore they were in need of tin. Egyptian traders bought the tin of persian deposits. But at 13th century many peoples of ancient Middle East were at enmity with each other, that made much more difficulties to trade the tin. But there were another tin sources - it's in Europe. Thus, european tin mining became much more important for all metallurgical centers of Mediterranean sea area. Therefore, some folks were be forced to fight for tin deposits or tin trade routs. Quite perhaps, some of peoples or tribes went along the routes to capture control of sources and commercial relations in region. I want to remind that about 600 BC arose the Jastorf culture, which admittedly is proto-germanic culture and the center of expansion movement of germanic tribes. I suggest this culture were developing during some centuries before it became what it became. So, maybe did these attackers were a pre-Jastorf migration group? For example they were from Balkans, or from Danube valley, or from Illiric region, or another area which would be dependent on tin, or bronze, or tin/bronze trade. What do you think about? Could they be the invaders?
    Last edited by Skomand; 2017-09-13 at 09:35.

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    DNA from teeth suggests some warriors are related to modern southern Europeans and others to people living in modern-day Poland and Scandinavia.
    My bet is ageladakos and his motley crew got trounced.

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    Been hearing about this for a couple of years now, I'm really curious as to what type of "southern European" we're talking about here. Something similar to Hungary_BA would make the most sense.

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    http://www.ostsee-zeitung.de/Nachric...tes-Berufsheer

    military tactics were applied

    It must have been a mighty battle. A slaughter. Archerers take enemy warriors from the slopes of the Tollensetal valley under fire, sending a hail of arrows down on their enemies along the river. Then attackers move forward, and hundreds, maybe thousands, die in bloody hand-to-hand combat - with swords, axes, lances and wooden clubs. The dead are plundered, left in the swamps and skeletal parts werehed away during the decay of the corpse.

    Driftwood covers the human remains, bog overlaps them. The dead are forgotten. For more than 3200 years. The battle is a possible scenario, reconstructed by archaeologists and anthropologists on the basis of the findings to date. And there are thousands of them:"It is our largest bone series from the Bronze Age - a unique find site," emphasizes the Schwerin regional archaeologist Detlef Jantzen.
    by a standing army?
    And - according to a new insight - in the fights there were apparently men who could be called professional soldiers today. There are some indications that professional warriors have taken part in the battle,"says Ute Brinker. The archaeologist and her colleague Annemarie Schramm are investigating the bones of the dead from the Tollensetal in Wiligrad Castle on Lake Schwerin.

    Dozens of skulls are stored here on shelves, on tables there are thigh bones, ribs, vertebrae. And a special skull fragment: For the Bronze Age warrior it was fatal, for the researchers a stroke of luck - the bronze arrowhead is still in the top of his skull, which brought death to the man around 1250 BC.

    The researchers used certain bone characteristics to determine that the dead are men between 20 and 40 years of age.

    The dominance of young men is one of the indications for a "targeted selection of combat-capable persons", explains Ute Brinker.

    Further evidence: Some warriors had healed injuries caused by weapons. The men could have been involved in bloody battles before.

    The found sword, the spear and arrowheads - made of bronze and flint - also indicate different fighting techniques as well as social differences of the participating fighters. Only very rich men could afford precious swords. According to Ute Brinker, the extent of the battle is also an indication: according to projections, up to 3000 fighters could have taken part in the massacre of the Tollense. An enormous number in northern Europe, which was hardly populated at that time. It was an extraordinary organization to bring so many warriors together,"the archeologist emphasizes.

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    Shiet, I keep posting this shit since a year I think here. Check the civilized wogs Vs. Northern Barbaroi threads for me mentioning Slaughter at the Bridge.

    And here for Polish speaking members:

    http://www.racjonalista.pl/kk.php/s,9989
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2017-09-13 at 16:48.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    http://www.wissenschaft.de/home/-/jo...er-Menschheit/

    The "southern" origin of the fighters based on their consumption of millet cannot be maintained, but scientists are at a loss explaining how such a high number of warriots could be available locally.

    Where did the fighters come from?

    There are also new insights into the origins of warriors. Up to now, most of them have been considered immigrants from southern or eastern Europe. This could explain why up to 4000 people met at the Tollense, an area sparsely populated during the Bronze Age. The feeding of the fallen seemed to confirm this suspicion. Many people had eaten millet and they thought that it did not grow in this area at that time. The picture of marauding bands of millet eaters from the millet regions of Southeastern Europe descending into the North German Plain made the rounds. A daily newspaper even recognized "migrants from the south"in the Tollense's dead.

    However, millet was already cultivated in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania around 1500 BC, about 200 years before the battle, as it turned out during further excavations. So the fighters could well have been locals. But that would completely upset the image that archeologists from the Nordic Bronze Age have. At that time, Jantzen explains, about three to five people lived on one square kilometre. "If we take out the old, women and children, there may be one young man per square kilometre. Assuming that 4000 people fought at the Tollense, warriors from 4000 square kilometres around the area must have been mobilized. "You're looking for a strong authority that must have stood behind such a mighty battle."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skomand View Post
    http://www.wissenschaft.de/home/-/jo...er-Menschheit/

    The "southern" origin of the fighters based on their consumption of millet cannot be maintained, but scientists are at a loss explaining how such a high number of warriots could be available locally.
    I wonder if it was a Proso Millet:

    The human samples studied here show evidence for consumption of millet, a uniquely Slavic cultigen in Europe that may be useful in studying Slavic migrations. My stable isotope data track millet consumption in Poland back to the Neolithic period (approximately 2,000 BC).

    Millet was cultivated in Poland since the Neolithic, but increased significantly in the Roman Era (Wasylikowka et al. 1991: 227). Millet is common among Slavic populations and has been documented in Southern and Eastern Europe by numerous paleobotanical (Polcyn 2002; Pyrgała 1970; Rösch et al. 1992; Wasylikowa et al. 1991; Zohary and Hopf 1988) and stable isotope investigations (Le Huray and Schutkowski 2005; Murray and Schoeninger 1988; Reitsema et al. 2010). Stable isotope studies in Western Europe (e.g.: Netherlands and Britain) indicate an absence of millet in human diet during and preceding the medieval period (Randsborg 1985; Richards et al. 2006; Schutkowski et al. 1999). This East-West dichotomy suggests Slavs had a cultural preference for millet (Dembińska 1999).
    EDIT:

    By Wiki:

    The name comes from the pan-Slavic general and generic name for millet (Russian, Ukrainian, Belarusian, Serbian, Macedonian, Bulgarian: просо and Polish, Czech, Slovak, Slovenian, Croatian: proso).
    Unlike the foxtail millet, the wild ancestor of the proso millet has not yet been satisfactorily identified. Weedy forms of this grain are found in central Asia, covering a widespread area from the Caspian Sea east to Xinjiang and Mongolia, and it may be that these semiarid areas harbor "genuinely wild P. miliaceum forms."[6] This millet has been reportedly found in Neolithic sites in Georgia (dated to the fifth and fourth millennia BC), in Germany (near Leipzig, Hadersleben) by Linear Pottery culture (Early LBK, Neolithikum 5500–4900 BCE),[7] as well as excavated Yangshao culture farming villages east in China.

    Proso millet appears to have reached Europe not long after its appearance in Georgia, first appearing in east and central Europe; however, the grain needed a few thousand more years to cross into Italy, Greece, and Iran[, and the earliest evidence for its cultivation in the Near East is a find in the ruins of Nimrud, Iraq dated to about 700 BC.[8]
    So, If these warriors ate Proso Millet, they were proto-Slavs (at least by diet) and had nothing in common with Southern Europeans
    Last edited by Pioterus; 2017-09-13 at 18:28.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski
    Świat się zmienia, słońce zachodzi, a wódka się kończy [The world is changing, sun is setting and we're running out of Vodka.]
    ― Andrzej Sapkowski

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    The supposedly southern warriors had genomes similar to Italians (no idea what type? Maybe northern?). So definitely not proto-Slavs. And millet was of course eaten in Italy since the Bronze Age, so that's not an issue.
    Last edited by Polako; 2017-09-15 at 03:46.

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    Professional Warriors in the Bronze Age 3300 Years Ago? The Remains of a Violent Conflict from the Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania

    https://www.academia.edu/18839551/Pr...urg-Vorpommern

    Abstract:
    Professional Warriors in the Bronze Age 3300 Years Ago? The Remains of a Violent Conflict from the Tollense Valley, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania
    Over the past years interdisciplinary research focused on Bronze Age finds from the Tollense Valley north of Altentreptow, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, dating from 1250 BC. Among these are skeletal remains of over 120 individuals, predominantly males, partly showing lesions resulting from violent conflicts, as well as weapons such as wooden clubs or flint and bronze arrowheads, and animal bones, primarily of horses. Recent terrestrial as well as aquatic archaeological research gave a deeper insight into the site. Exceptional finds (such as rings made of gold or tin) were made at various find spots scattering over 2.5 km close to the banks of the Tollense. Increasing numbers of weapons found at the site, primarily socketed bronze arrowheads which are contemporaneous with the skeletal remains highlight a violent component. is is accentuated by healed and non-healed injuries found among the skeletal remains.Based on the finds from the Tollense Valley this article deals with the question, to what extend a profes-sionalization of violent conflicts, and thus of war, can be expected at this phase of the Bronze Age.
    T. Link / H. Peter-Röcher (Hrsg.), Gewalt und Gesellschaft. Dimensionen der Gewalt in ur- und frühgeschichtlicher Zeit. Internationale Tagung vom 14.–16. März 2013 an der Julius-Maximilians-Universität Würzburg. Universitätsforschungen zur Prähistorischen Archäologie 259 (Bonn 2014) 93–109.
    Last edited by Skomand; 2017-09-15 at 14:36.

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    German documentary on the excavations

    https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/ter...lense-102.html

    The Amber Road: Tollense

    In the Tollense Valley in Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, archaeologists discovered a battlefield of the Bronze Age. Was it about the control of a supra-regional trade route to the Amber Coast?

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