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Thread: R1a-M417 in 5000-3500BC Eneolithic Ukraine726 days old

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    Default R1a-M417 in 5000-3500BC Eneolithic Ukraine

    I'm guessing everyone here missed this joyous occasion, but yeah, this pretty much solves, or rather stamps, the ultimate origin of all of the groups rich in M417, like Corded Ware, Balts, Slavs, Indo-Iranians, Scandinavians (in large part), probably the Tarim Basin mummies, maybe Tocharians, etc. It was on the Western steppe.

    See Sredny Stog culture sample Eneolithic Ukraine I6561 in the spreadsheet here. The preprint in question is here.

    This individual is Yamnaya-like, but he precedes Yamnaya by at least a few hundred years, which makes sense, considering that Sredny Stog is one of the Eneolithic groups implicated in the formation of Yamnaya, and probably early Proto-Indo-European. Also, he has extra forager ancestry compared to Yamnaya, and a fair whack of European farmer admixture, which means that if we use this sample to model modern North and East Europeans, the steppe ancestry ratio should be much higher than 50% now.

    Question: was this as much of an emotional moment for you as it was for me?

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    Did you miss the part where people of that region acquired some 50% middle eastern DNA together with r1a-m417?

    We can also see the entire process of Indoeuropeanization of Iran pointing to the same middle eastern population, and that it had nothing to do with Steppe people.

    Stay delusional for as long as you can, India study is coming out soon.

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    @Saetrus

    R1a is present in Eastern European ancient DNA dating to the Mesolithic. It has nothing to do with the Near East you dumb troll.

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    This is very significant as Sredny Stog is, arguably, the most convincing archeological correlate for the PIE homeland. It'll be interesting to see whether other samples from the Sredny Stog culture will also turn out to be CW-like and whether R1b-L51 will show up as well. If so, then like you said, most present-day Northern Europeans are going to owe far more than 50% of their ancestry to the Chalcolithic inhabitants of the Pontic-Caspian steppe.


    Quote Originally Posted by MnM View Post
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    Those Bronze Age samples are just red herrings to distract you from the actual arrivals of populations with Semitic ancestry. Don’t take the bait by focusing on the wrong samples, lol. He is passing off Bronze Age Levantines with no evidence of strong predynastic input, as “Semites“. This way, he can flip it around and say Proto-Semitic speakers and predynastics were more or less identical to the Bronze Age Levantines sampled so far.
    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    @Semitic Duwa

    Wonder what the resident Proto-Semite has to say about this. I thought unmixed Egyptians were supposed to be Abusir with less/zero Chl?

    In your view, does this prove you wrong, or is it just a coincidence () that M1 is absent in one of the three subsamples from Abusir, and rare overall?

    And don’t change your signature now, please. I’m looking forward to you looking more and more incompetent as more aDNA is published. Wish there was a way to speed this up. But the extra wait and seeing you with your pants down every day, kinda has its own appeal, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Question: was this as much of an emotional moment for you as it was for me?
    lol.

    I'll have to read the paper first, before I can give my 2 cents on it. However, this means that R1a-M417 is a Steppe marker, if true. It could also mean that R1a-Z93+ migrated from the steppe, but I'm not so sure about that.

    What's the pigmentation of this aR1an bloke?

    Also, Yamnaya was the maximum extent of the PIE urheimat, i.e., an 'imperial expansion' of some sort, right before the major migrations started. Obviously before the domestication of the horse and the invention of the wheel, PIE speakers were far more limited in geography. Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk and similar archaeological regions, should be better territories for the PIE urheimat.

    Anyway, if this R1a-M417 guy is genetically very identical to modern Balto-Slavs and Germanics, then the only rational conclusion is that modern northern and eastern Europeans are of mostly proto-Indo-European ancestry, which would be quite remarkable.
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    text
    Average date for specimen I6561 is 6200 years ago. That's perfectly in line with the estimated age of the proto-Indo-European language by both JP Mallory and David W. Anthony, which was estimated to have been spoken between 4,500 BC and 2,500 BC. And R1a-M417+ that early, means M417 was around from the very start in the early stages of rhe PIE language and at the right place.

    This begs the question, if all the R1b found in Yamnaya, actually spoke PIE or if they got Indo-Europeanized, or if they were simply another group/tribe of PIE folks. If not PIE, it's very likely that the R1b tribe spoke a language closely related to PIE (perhaps the ancestor to proto-Anatolian?), and that sooner or later they shifted to PIE.

    Nonetheless, Sredny Stog showing up R1a-M417 isn't surprising. Clearly Corded Ware came from western Ukraine. What's interesting is how genetically related Sredny Stog was to Yamnaya, because Yamnaya expanded into Sredny Stog territory. We'll never know who spoke PIE first, or if Yamnaya language shifted Sredny Stog to PIE or vice versa, but it'll be interesting to see how the gene flow went.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Average date for specimen I6561 is 6200 years ago. That's perfectly in line with the estimated age of the proto-Indo-European language by both JP Mallory and David W. Anthony, which was estimated to have been spoken between 4,500 BC and 2,500 BC. And R1a-M417+ that early, means M417 was around from the very start in the early stages of rhe PIE language and at the right place.

    This begs the question, if all the R1b found in Yamnaya, actually spoke PIE or if they got Indo-Europeanized, or if they were simply another group/tribe of PIE folks. If not PIE, it's very likely that the R1b tribe spoke a language closely related to PIE (perhaps the ancestor to proto-Anatolian?), and that sooner or later they shifted to PIE.

    Nonetheless, Sredny Stog showing up R1a-M417 isn't surprising. Clearly Corded Ware came from western Ukraine. What's interesting is how genetically related Sredny Stog was to Yamnaya, because Yamnaya expanded into Sredny Stog territory. We'll never know who spoke PIE first, or if Yamnaya language shifted Sredny Stog to PIE or vice versa, but it'll be interesting to see how the gene flow went.
    I don't think Corded Ware came from Western Ukraine. There's too much farmer and Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) stuff already around the Dnieper for that to be the Corded Ware homeland. Corded Ware folks are sometimes as eastern as Yamnaya.

    The burial site of this M417 guy is actually on the Ukrainian/Russian border (the coordinates in the linked paper are wrong). The site is Alexandria on this map.



    In large part he's like Yamnaya and the earlier Khvalynsk people. So it seems like there was a population in that part of the steppe that gave rise to Khvalynsk, Sredny Stog and Yamnaya. These were no doubt the Proto-Indo-Europeans, and they probably carried various clades of R1, as well as some local steppe I2a, and some of these lineages became very common, or even fixed, as they split into clans, due to founder effects and patrilocality.
    Last edited by Polako; 2017-10-04 at 22:10.

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    @Polako :

    I thought you said he was genetically more like Corded Ware than like Yamnaya? In any case, while I personally don't have much doubt that all of Yamnaya was PIE speaking territory, it must be understood that Yamnaya represents a cultural horizon that was horse riding and wheel utilizing. Yamnaya was basically the maximum expansion before the major Indo-European migrations to the rest of Europe began, and basically an Indo-European proto-empire, so to say (they were illiterate and lacked architecture and so on, so Yamnaya was technically speaking not a civilization and not a proper empire either). That begs the question if the various tribes in Yamnaya always spoke proto-Indo-European or some variety of PIE, even before the expansion of PIE language/culture to the Yamnaya borders. Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk or Samara, smaller cultural horizons like that, are better candidates for the original PIE root culture, or original core PIE heartland so to say.

    Would you for example say that PIE was spoken from Samara to Mariupol before the Yamnaya era? That's of course a possibility but I can't say I'd bet on it (it's a too large/wide territory for a single language family to form in sedentary times). I mean it's possible that Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk, Cucuteni-Tripolye and so on, were all PIE speakers, and that Yamnaya simply represented a geographic unification of a linguistically cohesive territory. PIE could after all have been a daughter language to R1 descended ANE settlers who migrated from Siberia to Ukraine, and settled down all over Ukraine and souther Russia, and mixed with the locals, who at least carried Y-DNA I2. I1 Might also have been native to the the Steppe, I wouldn't be surprised if I1 pops up there in the ancient DNA record. Some minor Q clades should also have come along with the R1 tribe, from Siberia.

    Anyway, you have any data on his pigmentation genotypes?
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-10-04 at 23:31. Reason: Typo
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    I thought you said he was genetically more like Corded Ware than like Yamnaya?
    He is, but some Corded Ware individuals are more similar to Yamnaya than to him. So it looks like Corded Ware came from a fairly wide area and a population that ranged in terms of genetic structure from this Sredny Stog guy to Yamnaya Samara.

    Yamnaya was basically the maximum expansion before the major Indo-European migrations to the rest of Europe began, and basically an Indo-European proto-empire, so to say (they were illiterate and lackef architecture and so on, so Yamnaya was technically speaking not a civilization and not a proper empire either). That begs the question if the various tribes in Yamnaya always spoke proto-Indo-European or some variety of PIE, even before the expansion of PIE language/culture to the Yamnaya borders. Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk or Samara, smaller cultural horizons like that, are better candidates for the original PIE root culture, or original core PIE heartland so to say.
    Yamnaya was Late PIE, and it may have only been a part of the Late PIE horizon. It really depends on where Corded Ware came from; if from Yamnaya, then Yamnaya was Late PIE, if from a closely related group, like, say, late Sredny Stog, then Yamnaya was just a part of Late PIE. Ancient DNA will work this out soon.

    Would you for example say that PIE was spoken from Samara to Mariupol before the Yamnaya era?
    Yes, I think that was the case. Ancient DNA shows that there was a highly mobile population expanding on the steppe already during the Eneolithic. It was Yamnaya-like, but much earlier, giving rise, at least in part, to Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk. These had to be the very early Proto-Indo-Europeans.

    I mean it's possible that Sredny Stog, Khvalynsk, Cucuteni-Tripolye and so on, were all PIE speakers, and that Yamnaya simply represented a geographic unification of a linguistically cohesive territory.
    Cucuteni-Tripolye is totally out of the picture based on their DNA. The Proto-Indo-Europeans were the ancestors shared by Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk. Yamnaya is just an early daughter branch.

    Anyway, you have any data on his pigmentation genotypes?
    Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    He is, but some Corded Ware individuals are more similar to Yamnaya than to him. So it looks like Corded Ware came from a fairly wide area and a population that ranged in terms of genetic structure from this Sredny Stog guy to Yamnaya Samara.
    Oh okay. But if he is genetically more like Corded Ware and being that he was from western Yamnaya, and Samara being located in eastern Yamnaya, two scenarios are possible here:

    1) Either western Yamnaya had more indigenous admixture from continental/central/northern Europe very early on, like from the get-go of the formation or earliest standardization of the PIE language.

    2) Or Samara (eastern Yamnaya so to say) didn't contribute as much genetically to Corded Ware as the Alexandria/Mariupol inhabitants did. And then later on, when Corded Ware descendants from western Yamnaya remigrated/expanded east, to Andronovo and so on, and became the Scythians, they eventually mixed with the Samara folks, and that's why Iron Age Scythians cluster a bit closer to Corded Ware than Yamnaya does, in this map:



    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Yamnaya was Late PIE, and it may have only been a part of the Late PIE horizon. It really depends on where Corded Ware came from; if from Yamnaya, then Yamnaya was Late PIE, if from a closely related group, like, say, late Sredny Stog, then Yamnaya was just a part of Late PIE. Ancient DNA will work this out soon.
    I'm sure ancient DNA will give the final last clues to the puzzle. However, it's important to understand the laws of linguistics: a single, cohesive language in prehistoric, sedentary times (i.e., before horse/wheel), cannot take form and maintain mutual intelligibility over such a large region as Yamnaya. That's why Yamnaya can only represent a mobile, horse riding culture.

    If you look at for example ancient Semitic languages, Israel and pre-Carthage Phoenicia represented one branch and its dialects (Canaanite), Syria represented Aramaic, pre-imperial Assyria and Babylonia represented Akkadian, and so on. It's possible that there were early, various branches of PIE in western and eastern Yamnaya, but if so, Yamnaya must have led to standardization/homogenization of PIE speech, similar to how Latin through the Roman Empire replaced Celtic in France and Iberia. Otherwise we'd have two different Indo-European language families today, and that's not the case; IE does represent a single language family.

    Of course some linguists have argued that PIE might be a "hybrid language", so who knows. But the point is, and I stress this, Yamnaya is too wide a territory, for a single language family in ancient times, to have taken form. Genetics cannot change this. The inhabitants from Samara to Mariupol may have been very genetically homogeneous and all, doesn't matter. Before the invention of the wheel and the domestication of the horse, mobility was limited over such a wide territory, and mutual intelligibility would have been difficult to maintain over a few thousand years. That's not to say that linguistic differences on the scale of Indo-European and Uralic would have arisen, but for sure we'd have something like two major divisions of Indo-European branches (and by that I mean a significantly bigger division than Centum-Satem).

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Yes, I think that was the case. Ancient DNA shows that there was a highly mobile population expanding on the steppe already during the Eneolithic. It was Yamnaya-like, but much earlier, giving rise, at least in part, to Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk. These had to be the very early Proto-Indo-Europeans.
    I'd say that PIE was basically an ANE descendant, and an early ancestral variety of PIE came from the north-east (Siberia), and given that R1a-M420 was found in Neolithic Karelia, it's questionable where these early ANE settlers settled down first. In that context, Samara or Khvalynsk is a good bet, since it's a bit further north compared to Alexandria. Of course in such a scenario, it can't be ruled out that they kept colonizing further south-west, all the way to Mariupol, but Khvalynsk should represent an earlier settlement of ANE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    Cucuteni-Tripolye is totally out of the picture based on their DNA.
    Why, too "Old Europe"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Polako View Post
    The Proto-Indo-Europeans were the ancestors shared by Sredny Stog and Khvalynsk. Yamnaya is just an early daughter branch.
    Yeah makes sense.
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2017-10-05 at 01:29.
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    Quoted for truth:
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
    Anatolian Urhemait supporters are mostly butthurt Meds.
    For the lulz:
    Quote Originally Posted by drgs View Post
    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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