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Thread: New Study Shows Guanches Were Most Similar To Modern North African Berbers (Rodriguez-Varela et al 2017)724 days old

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    Would love to see the high coverage samples on gedmatch, alot of us should match.

    Also interesting about the L3b1a.

    Looks like its differnet from mine which is L3b1a + 1624T

    These seems to have L3b1a + 1624C

    L3b1a + 1624T seems to be found in malagasy/mozambiquea.

    Also seeing some stuff from the other islands like La Gomera will be interesting.

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    Haplogroup T1a2a according to Genetiker.

    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    From the paper:

    Outgroup Guanche North_African Sardinian = >0

    Do you have a better explanation?
    Bogus, like some of the stats of the paper (that's pretty common). The authors gave a disclaimer:

    these statistics are not suitable to identify the modern population most similar to Guanches in the sense that we intend it for this study
    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    People aren't associating Berbers with "East Africa", there's just pervasive East African SSA components in Berbers... not to mention the Dstats, closest population VS Sardinians are Arabized Nubians.. Uniparentals aside... the evidence for "West SSAfrican" Admixture autosomally is bottom tier.
    Bogus stats. What might be causing it is recent SSA ancestry in some of the modern North African samples (not to mention highly drifted Mozabites, Sahraouis and some others are hijacking the PCA and ADMIXTURE as usual).
    As for these Sudanese "Shaigi", they are indeed unexpected but the samples are totally different from Arabized Nubians (much less African notably) and more akin to Northwest Africans. Or it is a mistake, like the mislabeled "Afars" if I remember correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukonin View Post
    Haplogroup T1a2a according to Genetiker.



    Bogus, like some of the stats of the paper (that's pretty common). The authors gave a disclaimer:





    Bogus stats. What might be causing it is recent SSA ancestry in some of the modern North African samples (not to mention highly drifted Mozabites, Sahraouis and some others are hijacking the PCA and ADMIXTURE as usual).
    As for these Sudanese "Shaigi", they are indeed unexpected but the samples are totally different from Arabized Nubians (much less African notably) and more akin to Northwest Africans. Or it is a mistake, like the mislabeled "Afars" if I remember correctly.
    By god, this site makes me want to rip my hair out.
    Atleast form your assertion as a question so that you don't look like a complete moron.

    Recent SSA ancestry in North Africans are easily distinguished, whether it be via Globetrotter, Malder, Alder, ADMIXTURE or GEDmatch spreadsheets, and they correspond with geography. meaning; they show up as West African admixture in Northwest Africans.

    Just do the easy thing and look at the West African distribution in their ADMIXTURE graph
    Spoiler: 
    The Guanches don't have no West African SSA signatures


    Now also consider the fact that outside of north African the neolithic Ifri n'Amr or Moussa samples are closer to Somalis (somewhat Arabized East Africans) than any Non-African population. So when we run F4 against Sardinians, a European sample best representative of admixture in North Africans, seeing shaigia leading the pack should at least cause a little light bulb to go off in your head somewhere.
    Last edited by El-Maestro; 2017-10-30 at 03:29.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukonin View Post
    Bogus, like some of the stats of the paper (that's pretty common). The authors gave a disclaimer:
    I thought you said that the data does not agree with what I said. Now you’re saying the data is bogus. So, which Is it?

    And, in your view, what data disagrees with what I said?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukonin View Post

    Berbers aren't more East African than Egyptians (Copts included) so I don't understand why people are still associated Berbers with East Africa. People are probably confused because E-M35 was thought to be of East African origin and E-M35 peaks in Berbers (100% E-M81 in some groups). But we now know E-M35 most likely originated in North Africa based on modern diversity (as well as quite a few aDNA samples, including Natufians). The ancestor of E-M35 is most likely East African but that brings us to over 25,000 thousands years, while the Berber popularion is only 2000-3000 years old.
    Aye... Its my fault for using terms like East Africa(I should have known it would have caused kneejerk reaction) when I really meant Northeast Africa. You say E-M35 originated in North Africa but which North Africa? Because if I remember correctly it peaks in Berbers like the Siwa Berbers. Moving on... No one is saying Berbers are East African or more East African than Egyptians but that some of their DNA is Northeast African.

    More importantly @El-Maestro explained what I was trying to say in much better words especially with the D stats vs Sardinians and the Guanches being closest to Shaigi_WGA who appear to be Arabized Nubians. I didn't mention this yet because on another site I was asking for more info on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukonin View Post

    Also some of the African ancestry is West-Central African-like, so it lessens even more the link with East Africa.
    Why is West-Central ancestry African and not the North African? And they dont appear to carry West African like SSA ancestry.
    Last edited by BlessedbyHorus; 2017-10-30 at 10:08.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    By god, this site makes me want to rip my hair out.
    Atleast form your assertion as a question so that you don't look like a complete moron.

    Recent SSA ancestry in North Africans are easily distinguished, whether it be via Globetrotter, Malder, Alder, ADMIXTURE or GEDmatch spreadsheets, and they correspond with geography. meaning; they show up as West African admixture in Northwest Africans.

    Just do the easy thing and look at the West African distribution in their ADMIXTURE graph
    Spoiler: 
    The Guanches don't have no West African SSA signatures


    Now also consider the fact that outside of north African the neolithic Ifri n'Amr or Moussa samples are closer to Somalis (somewhat Arabized East Africans) than any Non-African population. So when we run F4 against Sardinians, a European sample best representative of admixture in North Africans, seeing shaigia leading the pack should at least cause a little light bulb to go off in your head somewhere.
    Well, there is Egyptsearch if this forum makes you want to rip your hair off. Besides, I don't know why so much emotional investment. Just like Blessed-by -whatever used the term "desperately" in this thread.

    Anyway, the ADMIXTURE run is hijacked by Mozabites again, that's why at higher Ks, Guanches don't score any SSA/West African and why North Africans that share less drift with Mozabites are getting more SSA, more Near East and more EEF.
    In all previous ADMIXTURE runs, part of the African ancestry of non-outlier Northwest Africans clearly prefer the Yoruba-like component. It doesn't mean it's all literally West African but it's clearly not East African.


    Quote Originally Posted by NonFingo View Post
    I thought you said that the data does not agree with what I said. Now you’re saying the data is bogus. So, which Is it?

    And, in your view, what data disagrees with what I said?
    Sometimes, it's better to use simple and maybe slightly outdated tools than complicated ones. And the authors are, again, clear: the results are not satisfactory. That's why the PCA as well as ADMIXTURE are more reliable than these bogus stats. And it is pretty straightforward, Guanches are the same population as modern Berbers and have around the same amount of African ancestry and act the same way as non-drifted modern Maghrebis.
    Shaigis are predominantly Eurasian too, but unlike Guanches and Berbers, they have clear recent Near Eastern ancestry. They for some reason act in ADMIXTURE like they have Berber ancestry with substantial Near East and some local Nubian. Although the Nubian C group comes to mind, it's too good (and too old anyway) to be true, so they're very likely not indigenous Sudanese, which is not unheard of for Sudan (Copts, Hausas, Fulanis etc).
    That's is the only thing one can infer from the paper without having our hands on the samples.
    Last edited by Tsukonin; 2017-10-30 at 10:46.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tsukonin View Post
    Well, there is Egyptsearch[/B] if this forum makes you want to rip your hair off...
    Good advice... I'm guessing the light bulb wont go off in this one, anywho, mind elaborating on why the Nubian C group comes to mind?

    Also check out at K8... You're making no sense.

    edit:
    Lmaoo reading through your response again I realized you're a funny dude, why would you toss all your cards on the table like that... I can recognize your source. lol, We do have access to their data, btw.. more Admixture runs might pop-up were you found your argument.
    Last edited by El-Maestro; 2017-10-30 at 12:05.

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    Quote Originally Posted by El-Maestro View Post
    Good advice... I'm guessing the light bulb wont go off in this one, anywho, mind elaborating on why the Nubian C group comes to mind?

    Also check out at K8... You're making no sense.

    edit:
    Lmaoo reading through your response again I realized you're a funny dude, why would you toss all your cards on the table like that... I can recognize your source. lol, We do have access to their data, btw.. more Admixture runs might pop-up were you found your argument.
    No idea what you're talking about. Tossing cards? It's not a game, I'm only sharing the same observations I've had for years while you were all lurking in Egyptsearch-like places to get your conspiracy theory fix. And my simple observations are supported by the little we have from this paper.

    Egyptsearch people are always making things more complex than they are, if it's not straight-up dumb and delusional. Anyway, I don't know why I'm still trying. Guanches were clearly Berber-like, thus predominantly Eurasian with some African ancestry that is partially West-Central African-like (uniparental supporting it, here mtdna L3b1a).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gihanga_Rwanda View Post
    I need to actually read the study but this suggests that most of the SSA ancestry in modern Berber speaking populations can’t be the result of the trans-Saharan slave trade. L3 makes up 1/3 of the sampled mtDNA lineages and the Guanches cluster with modern NW Africans like Tunisians and Algerians who we know have SSA ancestry.
    At the bolded part - I've been saying that for years. Unfortunately many fools have a terrible grasp of history and genetics in general.
    1. Many slaves died on the Trans-Saharan trade, *sarcasm* shock, horror. People dying traversing through a large sandy desert? Who would've thought!?*/sarcasm*
    2. A lot of the Mt-DNA L3 clades found among NW African/Berber women are native and very ancient.
    3. Nearly all of the male slaves had their balls cut off (many died btw) yet Y-DNA E-M2* and E1b1a8a is consistently found at low levels among NW African/Berber men!
    Last edited by Iron Hand; 2017-10-30 at 15:04.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iron Hand View Post
    At the bolded part - I've been saying that for years. Unfortunately many fools have terrible grasp of history and genetics in general.
    1. Many slaves died on the Trans-Saharan trade, *sarcasm* shock, horror. People dying traversing through a large sandy desert? Who would've thought!?*
    2. A lot of the Mt-DNA L3 clades found among NW African/Berber women are native and very ancient.
    3. Nearly of the male slaves had their balls cut off (many died btw) yet Y-DNA E-M2* and E1b1a8a is consistently found at low levels among NW African/Berber men!
    That... And based on many historical sources many of the slaves in the Western Sudan mostly went to the near East. It was only very late(i.e around 18th century way past the dates for these samples) that they went North to the Maghreb.

    And yeah Frigi long ago told us L3 is a very ancient NW African clade.

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