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Thread: The Northern Crusades689 days old

  1. #11
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    Race Realist Lemminkäinen's Avatar
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    We don't need to speculate why Germans came to the Baltic region. Their motive was to secure northern trade routes for its Hanseatic merchants. Germans needed new trading centres in the north. They had a common goal with Pope or have I say that their needs coincided with Pope's goal to christianize northern pagans. But what was good for Germans, wasn't good for the rising Swedish realm. It is another story.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

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    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

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  3. #12
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    @JaM The Balts were pagans, the Wends were pagans, once Danes called men to arms to "Fight the Infidels" they could not have stopped, they had to keep the steamroller going.
    The other part of the story is however that the persecution and disaster the fell upon Balts was a trigger to Lithuanians becoming the most powerful medieval royal line in CEE and more importantly - a first draft at human rights has been attempted for their sake.

    Paweł Włodkowic represented Poland at the 1414 Council of Constance, where he delivered a thesis about the power of the Pope and the Emperor, the Tractatus de potestate papae et imperatoris respectu infidelium (Treatise on the Power of the Pope and the Emperor Respecting Infidels). In it he drew the thesis that pagan and Christian nations could coexist in peace and criticized the Teutonic Order for its wars of conquest of native non-Christian peoples in Prussia and Lithuania. Due to his influence, in 1421 the Pope sent Antonio Zeno to investigate the Teutonic Order and its activities.

    At the Council of Constance, Paweł Włodkowic and all the Polish delegation defended Jan Hus.

    In 1420 Paweł Włodkowic represented Poland at a conference between Poland and the Teutonic Order held in Wrocław under the aegis of Sigismund of Luxemburg.

    As early as the beginning of the 15th century, along with Stanisław of Skarbimierz, Włodkowic strongly supported the idea of conciliarism and pioneered the notion of peaceful coexistence among nations – a forerunner of modern theories of human rights. Throughout his political, diplomatic and university career, Paweł Włodkowic expressed the view that a world guided by the principles of peace and mutual respect among nations was possible and that pagan nations had a right to peace and to possession of their own lands.
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
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  4. #13
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    Master procrastinator JaM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pioterus View Post
    @JaM The Balts were pagans, the Wends were pagans, once Danes called men to arms to "Fight the Infidels" they could not have stopped, they had to keep the steamroller going.
    The other part of the story is however that the persecution and disaster the fell upon Balts was a trigger to Lithuanians becoming the most powerful medieval royal line in CEE and more importantly - a first draft at human rights has been attempted for their sake.
    Buy why did the Teutonic Knights attack Novgorod, when the people there were Christians already? I read the description of the battle on the Ice, and it says there were a large percentage of Danish troops there as well, which is odd, as it happened right after the Danish rulers ordered all their boats and troops home. Sure, the king had some alliances with some Germans, especially the Teutonic Knights, but he was abducted by the Germans after the initial crusade, and he died in 1241 - and it's right after his death the troops were ordered temporary home, due to the perceived Mongol threat. No more good relations with the Germans, who almost bankrupted the country due to the ransom and they took the Danish North German territories. The battle on ice was in april 1242, this was under king Eric, who had nothing but problems keeping Denmark together. He returned to Estonia only in 1249. I guess there could've been a permanent Danish contingent based there, though it seems strange they would go on crusades elsewhere, considering the whole scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JaM View Post
    Buy why did the Teutonic Knights attack Novgorod, when the people there were Christians already?
    They were wrong Christians and Pope asked them to defend Finns and Baltic tribes. There was pretty much schisms between Catholic Churchs from the Great Schism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Schism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

  6. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lemminkäinen For This Useful Post:

    JaM (2018-05-11), Pioterus (2018-05-11)

  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lemminkäinen View Post
    They were wrong Christians and Pope asked them to defend Finns and Baltic tribes. There was pretty much schisms between Catholic Churchs from the Great Schism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Schism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East%E2%80%93West_Schism
    Interesting, it was endorsed by the pope. It's a bit strange since the fourth crusade wasn't meant to attack the Byzantines, it just happened due to some unfortunate occurrences. They were supposed to help the Byzantine ex ruler and the go to Jerusalem. The battle on the ice was almost four decades later, though.

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    Teutonic knights visited also in Finland and built a castle in Tavastia. They were called by Swedes, because Germans had better engineering skills in building modern castles. It was a contradicting situation seen from the Swedish side, because they didn't want Germans to Finland, but the eastern threat was concrete and the pope put pressure on Swedes The correspondence between Swedish king and Pope wasn't polite, the pope criticized Novgorod, and especially their allies, from subhuman-like activity, inter alia, from forcing prisoners to run bowels out of the body the the death. The pope underlined many times that those forces were inhuman barbarians. This was of course his war rhetoric.
    Blog: http://terheninenmaa.blogspot.fi/, with essence "Believe me, or I'll nuke you".

    H39 - Thracia 1650 BC, Hungary 5000 BC
    I1 - Transdanubia 5000 BC

    Three simple facts about Finns:
    1. Baltic Finnic languages (including Finnish) never came from the Volga basin along with ancestors of present-day Finns.
    2. Finnish I1 (around 30% of all Finns) has Germanic roots from the late Bronze Age or the early Iron Age.
    3. As to the Finnish prehistory we have no evidences about any Iron Age (or later) east-to-west migration, but many unquestionable evidences about west-to-east migrations.

    Väinämöinen - R1a
    Lemminkäinen - I1
    Joukahainen - N

  9. #17
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    Historical Ideologies → History: Warfare

    /mod
    “And, furthermore, that some people have a sex life and others don’t just because some are more attractive than others. I wanted to acknowledge that if people don’t have a sex life, it’s not for some moral reason, it’s just because they’re ugly. Once you’ve said it, it sounds obvious, but I wanted to say it.” — Michel Houellebecq

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    Assholes. Reason Prussian died out as a language!
    "Political correctness is the (...) revenge of the (...) intolerant, (...) dunce upon all the liveliness in this world. It is no more than the (...) resort of minds (...) that, for them, a revival of Stalinism is preferable to the pain of a glimpse of self-it's the last sigh of the beast that Nietzsche identified as ressentiment."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danielion View Post
    Assholes. Reason Prussian died out as a language!
    In the 1200s in areas north of the Danube - north of Bulgaria - there lived nomadic Cumans, who were among the last Pagans of Europe. In 1211 Hungarian King Andrew II invited the Teutonic Order to the area called Burzenland (Land of Bors), near the Hungarian-Cuman border. The purpose of inviting them was of course to help the Hungarians in their crusades against Pagan Cumans. But in 1225 Hungarian King expelled the T.O., and that's why it was later invited by Polish duke Konrad of Masovia to Land of Chełmno (German: Kulmerland) in Northern Poland in 1228 (where they started the conquest of Pagan Prussians and Lithuanians, with help of international crusaders). During their presence in the Land of Bors, the Order started to bring in settlers from the HRE to their new realm.

    The Hungarian king wanted to see the Teutonic Knights as his subjects. They had quite a different point of view and planned to establish their own, independent state in the area (like they later did in Prussia). This is why in 1224 the Teutonic Order started to seek support from the Pope, and wanted the Pope to recognize their independence from Hungary. Hungarian King Andrew II quickly realized what was going on, and in 1225 he expelled the T.O. from his realm, before it managed to grow powerful enough to oppose him.

    After being expelled from Hungary, the Teutonic Knights were invited to Prussia by Konrad of Masovia, in order to participate in crusade against Pagan Prussians. But even without that expulsion of Teutonic Knights from Hungary, a crusade against Prussians would still take place, because there were also other Knights' Orders in the area already before the Teutonic Order came there:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Dobrzy%C5%84

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_Order

    So even without the Teutonic Knights, Prussians would have eventually been conquered, or at least converted to Christianity. On the other hand, I wonder how would have South-East Europe's history looked like if they were not expelled from Hungary? Perhaps the Teutonic Knights would have created some kind of a German state at the Black Sea coast (instead of the Baltic Sea coast).

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