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Thread: Is human evolution possible elsewhere in the universe?550 days old

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    Perhaps not exactly like primates, but very similar in appearance. I do believe convergent evolution like that exists, however not in the point of humans as we know them to have evolved. Interestingly in Star Trek some inter-Galactic species are even able to procreate with each other. Of that I even doubt more that it's the case.

    But yeah, convergent evolution, but not necessarily a humanoid of the primate variety as has evolved here. Still two arms, two legs, five toes and five fingers, communication through speech, etc... That's probably the norm for intelligent life where-ever it exists.

    Actually not necessarily five fingers. This guy makes an argument for a second thumb on the other side of the hand and how it'd be an advantage.

    Last edited by Danielion; 2018-01-19 at 16:24.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EliasAlucard View Post
    Point is, intelligent life in the universe, it's not just about if it'll have high intelligence, but also the proper physical body to be able of communicating with us. What if we evolved with no limbs, like snakes? Our higher intelligence wouldn't count for much in the universe.221239543
    Cephalopods - highly intelligent, potentially sentient (some octopusses and cuttlefish), extremely agile with their arms.
    What blocks them? Highly competitive environment imo. They live too short, solitary lifes. Cuttlefish can communicate through color signalling.
    Lovecraft was onto something
    and the IEEE Milestone for breaking the Enigma Code goes to... Polish Cipher Bureau 1932-39

    “We know each other,” he agreed. “They say that you follow in my steps.”
    “I go my own way. But you, you had never, until just now, looked behind you. You turned back today for the first time.”
    Geralt remained silent. Tired, he had nothing to say. “How... How will it happen?” he asked her at last, coldly and without emotion. “I will take you by the hand,” she replied, looking him straight in the eye. “I will take you by the hand and lead you across the meadow, through a cold and wet fog.” “And after? What is there beyond the fog?” “Nothing,” she replied, smiling. “After that, there is nothing.”
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    ...At the 50th anniversary celebration of NASA on October 1, 2008, Stephen Hawking, then Newton's heir as the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics at the University of Cambridge, was asked the question, “Are we alone?” His answer was short and simple: "probably not."

    Hawking outlined three possibilities: One, that there is no life out there; and two, somewhat pessimistically, that when intelligent life gets smart enough to send signals into space, it is also busying itself with stockpiling nuclear bombs.

    Hawking, known not only for his sharp mind, but his also for his biting sense of humor, prefers option number three: "Primitive life is very common and intelligent life is fairly rare," he quickly added: "Some would say it has yet to occur on earth. "We should be careful if we ever happen upon extraterrestrial life, Hawking warns. Alien life may not have DNA like ours: "Watch out if you would meet an alien. You could be infected with a disease with which you have no resistance."
    What we normally think of as 'life' is based on chains of carbon atoms, with a few other atoms, such as nitrogen or phosphorous, Hawking observed in his lecture, Life in the Universe. We can imagine that one might have life with some other chemical basis, such as silicon, "but carbon seems the most favorable case, because it has the richest chemistry."

    The Earth was formed largely out of the heavier elements, including carbon and oxygen. Somehow, Hawking observes, "some of these atoms came to be arranged in the form of molecules of DNA. One possibility is that the formation of something like DNA, which could reproduce itself, is extremely unlikely. However, in a universe with a very large, or infinite, number of stars, one would expect it to occur in a few stellar systems, but they would be very widely separated."

    Other prominent scientists have warned that we humans may be blinded by our familiarity with carbon and Earth-like conditions. In other words, what we’re looking for may not even lie in our version of a “sweet spot”. After all, even here on Earth, one species' “sweet spot” is another species' worst nightmare. In any case, it is not beyond the realm of feasibility that our first encounter with extraterrestrial life will not be a solely carbon-based fete.

    Alternative biochemists speculate that there are several atoms and solvents that could potentially spawn life. Because carbon has worked for the conditions on Earth, we speculate that the same must be true throughout the Universe. In reality, there are many elements that could potentially do the trick. Even counter-intuitive elements such as arsenic may be capable of supporting life under the right conditions. Even on Earth some marine algae incorporate arsenic into complex organic molecules such as arsenosugars and arsenobetaines.

    Several other small life forms use arsenic to generate energy and facilitate growth. Chlorine and sulfur are also possible elemental replacements for carbon. Sulfur is capable of forming long-chain molecules like carbon. Some terrestrial bacteria have already been discovered to survive on sulfur rather than oxygen, by reducing sulfur to hydrogen sulfide.

    Nitrogen and phosphorus could also potentially form biochemical molecules. Phosphorus is similar to carbon in that it can form long chain molecules on its own, which would conceivably allow for formation of complex macromolecules. When combined with nitrogen, it can create quite a wide range of molecules, including rings.

    So what about water? Isn’t at least water essential to life?

    Not necessarily. Ammonia, for example, has many of the same properties as water. An ammonia or ammonia-water mixture stays liquid at much colder temperatures than plain water. Such biochemistries may exist outside the conventional water-based "habitability zone". One example of such a location would be right here in our own solar system on Saturn's largest moon Titan.

    Hydrogen fluoride methanol, hydrogen sulfide, hydrogen chloride, and formamide have all been suggested as suitable solvents that could theoretically support alternative biochemistry. All of these “water replacements” have pros and cons when considered in our terrestrial environment. What needs to be considered is that with a radically different environment, comes radically different reactions. Water and carbon might be the very last things capable of supporting life in some extreme planetary conditions.

    NASA's recent controversial announcement of the discovery of the possibility of arsenic-based life in Mono Lake fits hand-in-glove with NASA's strategy to expand the search for life beyond Earth to extreme non-carbon-based life. No discovery that we can make in our exploration of the solar system would have greater impact on our view of our position in the cosmos, or be more inspiring, than the discovery of an alien life form, even a primitive microbial one.

    The discovery over the past decade of extreme life forms thriving on Earth at the super-heated walls of Ocean volcanic vents and in the interior regions of the planet's crust, led to a seminal 2009 report, The Limits of Organic Life in Planetary Systems, by the National Research Council (NRC). The NASA sponsored report recommended that the search for beyond Earth’s solar system should be widened throughout the Universe to include the possibility of “weird” life.

    "Nothing," the report concludes, "would be more tragic in the American exploration of space than to encounter alien life and fail to recognize it.”

    Earth did not accumulate oxygen during the first roughly 3 billion years, or form an ozone layer until about 1.5 billion years ago. There is considerable emphasis on looking for contemporary Earth atmospheres that have oxygen and an ozone layer, but, the report hits home, we should also be using models with different anaerobic microbial non-carbon ecosystems, atmospheres that might parallel the different stages in the evolution of Earth's atmospheres over 4 billion years, and conditions that could indicate the presence of a tectonically active planet.

    The report pointed out that the exploration of the planet is concentrated on looking for places where liquid water exists -- which goes along with the idea of where life is found on the Earth. However, they emphasize that liquids such as ammonia, methane, and formamide could also be the building blocks for life.


    Saturn's moon, Titan is a perfect candidate: the discovery of evidence of liquid water-ammonia on Titan provides the potential for life-bearing polar fluids outside what is normally regarded as the habitable zone.

    http://www.dailygalaxy.com/my_weblog...lien-life.html

    - - - Updated - - -

    Let us take some propositions from the above article :

    1.)Primitive life is very common and intelligent life is fairly rare.

    2.)Hawking warns. Alien life may not have DNA like ours: "Watch out if you would meet an alien. You could be infected with a disease with which you have no resistance." What we normally think of as 'life' is based on chains of carbon atoms, with a few other atoms, such as nitrogen or phosphorous, Hawking observed in his lecture, Life in the Universe. We can imagine that one might have life with some other chemical basis, such as silicon, "but carbon seems the most favorable case, because it has the richest chemistry."

    3.)some of these atoms came to be arranged in the form of molecules of DNA. One possibility is that the formation of something like DNA, which could reproduce itself, is extremely unlikely. However, in a universe with a very large, or infinite, number of stars, one would expect it to occur in a few stellar systems, but they would be very widely separated.

    etc...

    So one can only seemingly likely expect something similar to DNA in a few stellar systems and they would be widely seperated so the likelihood of finding humanoid creatures that share 99% of their DNA in common with us is extremely unlikely mathematically.
    Last edited by Pendragon1; 2018-01-19 at 16:52.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon1 View Post
    I understand the topic
    I don't think you do

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon1 View Post
    it would just be tedious to explain in exacting detail why it is extremely unlikely but possible.
    The fact that you think "it is extremely unlikely but possible", indicates you don't really understand the topic. We all know it's extremely unlikely, obviously, but possible? Why is it at all possible? I'm going to give a serious wall of text explanation later why it is or isn't possible, but I'd like to hear your take on it first, and from other members, to see how well you guys understand evolution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon1 View Post
    Long story short : just because a planet may be in the 'goldilocks' zone and capable of life does not mean it will have the same elements or elements in the same proportion to earth. Other intelligent live forms may have developed where there is no oxygen in the atmosphere etc.. so and so forth. Hold , up. let me back up first of all the chemical reaction that happened in the primordial soup that gave rise to life on earth was extremely rare and what are the chances the primordial soup would be made of the same exact proportion of compounds on other planets? Plus even if it was the evolutionary pressure and ecosystem of other creatures that pushed our evolution being the same or similar etc... to the point that :

    " humanoid species that looks like exactly like us, has the same organs, consists of DNA that is over 99% identical to ours, can communicate through language not necessarily being Indo-European or Sino-Tibetan languages, but nonetheless languages we could learn to speak (meaning, no telepathy bullshit), and have evolved radiotelescope capable intelligence (meaning, they can build radiotelescopes)."

    is extremely unlikely. I mean you did not simply say 'generically roughly humanoid looking' so from a mathematical perspective it is extremely unlikely since even other earth like planets in the 'goldilocks zone' will not likely have the same proportion of gases in the atmosphere etc.. and then a similar ecosystem is even less likely so on and so forth to the point of mathematical extreme rarity.
    What I meant, as I pointed out in my first post, is something like the Kryptonians/Superman in the DC universe, but without the superpowers nonsense. Or in other words, are there non-terrestrial humans -- not humanoids but humans -- out there in the universe, who did not evolve on Earth, but are in pretty much every other way, humans aside from speaking languages that don't exist, and have never been spoken on this planet?

    This thread is actually important, because mainstream people don't really understand evolution, even though they might defend evolution against creationists and so on, they don't really understand evolution. Which is why science fiction often feature not only humanoid aliens, but at times indistinguishable from humans; Superman is the most obvious example, but even in Star Trek, the Vulcans are almost identical to humans too, with the exception of their pointy ears and a bit heavier eye-lids, but other than that Vulcans are very Caucasoid-like in their physical appearance. Shit like this, isn't realistic science fiction (2001: A Space Odyssey, is more realistic in that sense). And then there's the Prometheus stuff also (based on the quasi-religious ancient astronauts/aliens nonsense), which, according to the Prometheus/Alien universe, evolution here on Earth was seeded by an advanced, highly technological humanoid species whose DNA is more or less human (they do look slightly different though, compared to us):



    Also, you're barking up the wrong tree here; the fact that you're trying to argue why it's unlikely by pointing out the chemical elements of other planets, their primordial soup having to be identical to the one that happened on Earth and stuff like that, also indicates you don't understand this topic (or more precisely, evolution). There are lots of earth-like planets out there, with the same stars as ours (our sun is actually quite an average type I star), located within the goldilocks zone, containing roughly equal proportions of water and so on, and given the amount of stars out there, and their planets, it's very likely that there are earth-like planets that are virtually indistinguishable from ours, or even identical to Earth. And by the way, the amino acid glycine, has been found on meteorites too, so it's not that unlikely, that the other amino acids we're made of protein-wise, exist elsewhere in the universe.

    I'm not trying to be condescending toward you or hurt your ego or anything, but there are lots of misconceptions about evolution among laymen, which is why a thread like this is warranted. A few years ago, you made a point by telling me anthropologists have lower IQ than astronomers/astrophysicists, which I agree with, but it just so happens, that I'm an astronomy geek too It's true that I haven't been reading as much about astronomy in my adult years as I did when I was a kid (astronomy was really my first intellectual topic I developed a passion for, at the age of 7!), but go ahead, prove to us all that you understand astronomy and exobiology better than me Give me your best shot dawg!
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2018-01-20 at 02:11.
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    If planets are in the "goldilocks" zone then I believe so. There are BILLIONS of galaxies in this universe. Its unfathomable to believe life doesn't exist else where. And I don't believe the silly crap that life on Earth arrived from a asteroid crashing onto Earth.

    Anyways, I don't believe Earth is the only world that holds life. IIRC Mars is said to POSSIBLE hold microbes. Also Bacteria is said to be on Jupiter's moon Europa. Simple non-complex life? Yeah. But still life nonetheless.

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    This is asking the odds in a numbers game. The universe is vast beyond our comprehension, with a near infinite amount of star systems and planets. Long story short, we're dealing with really big numbers here. So I'd waver the answer probably being "yes" even if extremely rare, and despite the fact that evolution is chaotic in it's nature. Hell, general humaniod life is probably even more common, since all you'd probably really need for such life to exist is a terrestrial planet with similar gravity and winds speed of Earth's (give or take).

    Then again who really knows. We're looking at this from a limited perspective. Maybe life in general is an extreme rarity in the universe. Maybe life in the universe is in fact very common, but carbon based lifeforms like us are a massive anomaly.
    Last edited by saru21; 2018-01-19 at 19:45.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    If planets are in the "goldilocks" zone then I believe so.
    The goldilocks zone isn't really a requirement for life, it's just a more optimal position, but life can theoretically, arise on planets far outside the goldilocks zone.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlessedbyHorus View Post
    There are BILLIONS of galaxies in this universe. Its unfathomable to believe life doesn't exist else where. And I don't believe the silly crap that life on Earth arrived from a asteroid crashing onto Earth.

    Anyways, I don't believe Earth is the only world that holds life. IIRC Mars is said to POSSIBLE hold microbes. Also Bacteria is said to be on Jupiter's moon Europa. Simple non-complex life? Yeah. But still life nonetheless.
    It appears you didn't read the thread's topic question. I'm not talking about life in general here.

    Quote Originally Posted by saru21 View Post
    This is asking the odds in a numbers game. The universe is vast beyond our comprehension, with a near infinite amount of star systems and planets. Long story short, we're dealing with really big numbers here. So I'd waver the answer probably being "yes" even if extremely rare, and despite the fact that evolution is chaotic in it's nature. Hell, general humaniod life is probably even more common, since all you'd probably really need for such life to exist is a terrestrial planet with similar gravity and winds speed of Earth's (give or take).

    Then again who really knows. We're looking at this from a limited perspective. Maybe life in general is an extreme rarity in the universe. Maybe life in the universe is in fact very common, but carbon based lifeforms like us are a massive anomaly.
    Life is of course super rare, and evolution is not chaotic at all
    @Pendragon1 , don't fag out now, I'm still waiting for a reply
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    Scientists: Extraterrestrials May Exist, But We Won't Find Human-Like Intelligence

    In almost every sci-fi novel and every blockbuster film, the alien life humans encounter in deep space is intelligent, highly-developed, and self-aware. But, if life really has evolved on other planets (or moons, or asteroids) will it be like us? Will we ever find a species akin to the vulcans or klingons?

    In an article released today, Dr. Anna Dornhaus, professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Arizona, explores this idea: Will life on other planets eventually acquire ‘complexity’ and intelligence similar to that found on Earth?

    Why are Human Beings Intelligent?
    Scientists don’t know why human intelligence evolved. They can trace some of its history, and some of the consequences, but that isn’t enough to come to any solid conclusions. No other animal appears to have the same level of cognitive complexity, ability to use abstract and endlessly flexible communication, and ability to capitalize on social division of labor as humans do.

    One hypothesis, though, revolves around the reproductive benefits gained by individuals with high ‘social intelligence’, particularly when living in large groups. Mammals in larger groups seem to have larger brains. Another line of evidence also suggests that human-like intelligence emerges with low probability: And that is that it did not appear on Earth for a long time, perhaps as recently as 50,000 years ago.

    Cognitive skills also seem to evolve to be finely tuned to their benefits and costs. If local conditions change the benefits of a particular skill, that skill, and even the associated part of the brain, may disappear…only to be rebuilt later.

    The resulting skill set in humans, says Dornhaus, enabled a cultural evolution that includes not only tool development and use to an (on Earth) unparalleled degree, but also has enabled individuals to capitalize on trial-and-error learning, sensory information, and be aware of insights learned generations before and miles away from their own existence. It is this cultural evolution that makes us who we are today.

    So, back to the original question—will aliens be intelligent?

    Almost certainly, says Dornhaus, but not intelligent like human beings. We are more likely to see Tribbles than the human-like Klingons.

    The study asserts that lifeforms on other planets, if they exist, will be intelligent. Cognitive skills are common on Earth—even bacteria on Earth show learning, even insects use tools. Moreover, many animals show learned and spontaneous problem solving abilities. All of these skills, says Dornhaus, are so ubiquitous in Earth’s organisms that is is hard to imagine aliens ‘living’ without them.

    To that end, if intelligence is understood as information processing, cognitive problem solving, or behavioral flexibility, we would predict it to be commonplace wherever life exists. However, we would also predict that its precise form will depend exactly on the balance of benefits and costs of such skills. However, human-like intelligence appears to be unlikely and rare due to how it is linked to our specific evolution.

    This doesn’t bode well for the prospect of finding human-like aliens

    http://www.google.com/amp/s/futurism...telligence/amp
    Last edited by Pendragon1; 2018-01-20 at 14:38.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon1 View Post
    Scientists: Extraterrestrials May Exist, But We Won't Find Human-Like Intelligence

    In almost every sci-fi novel and every blockbuster film, the alien life humans encounter in deep space is intelligent, highly-developed, and self-aware. But, if life really has evolved on other planets (or moons, or asteroids) will it be like us? Will we ever find a species akin to the vulcans or klingons?

    In an article released today, Dr. Anna Dornhaus, professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at the University of Arizona, explores this idea: Will life on other planets eventually acquire ‘complexity’ and intelligence similar to that found on Earth?

    Why are Human Beings Intelligent?
    Scientists don’t know why human intelligence evolved. They can trace some of its history, and some of the consequences, but that isn’t enough to come to any solid conclusions. No other animal appears to have the same level of cognitive complexity, ability to use abstract and endlessly flexible communication, and ability to capitalize on social division of labor as humans do.

    One hypothesis, though, revolves around the reproductive benefits gained by individuals with high ‘social intelligence’, particularly when living in large groups. Mammals in larger groups seem to have larger brains. Another line of evidence also suggests that human-like intelligence emerges with low probability: And that is that it did not appear on Earth for a long time, perhaps as recently as 50,000 years ago.

    Cognitive skills also seem to evolve to be finely tuned to their benefits and costs. If local conditions change the benefits of a particular skill, that skill, and even the associated part of the brain, may disappear…only to be rebuilt later.

    The resulting skill set in humans, says Dornhaus, enabled a cultural evolution that includes not only tool development and use to an (on Earth) unparalleled degree, but also has enabled individuals to capitalize on trial-and-error learning, sensory information, and be aware of insights learned generations before and miles away from their own existence. It is this cultural evolution that makes us who we are today.

    So, back to the original question—will aliens be intelligent?

    Almost certainly, says Dornhaus, but not intelligent like human beings. We are more likely to see Tribbles than the human-like Klingons.

    The study asserts that lifeforms on other planets, if they exist, will be intelligent. Cognitive skills are common on Earth—even bacteria on Earth show learning, even insects use tools. Moreover, many animals show learned and spontaneous problem solving abilities. All of these skills, says Dornhaus, are so ubiquitous in Earth’s organisms that is is hard to imagine aliens ‘living’ without them.

    To that end, if intelligence is understood as information processing, cognitive problem solving, or behavioral flexibility, we would predict it to be commonplace wherever life exists. However, we would also predict that its precise form will depend exactly on the balance of benefits and costs of such skills. However, human-like intelligence appears to be unlikely and rare due to how it is linked to our specific evolution.

    This doesn’t bode well for the prospect of finding human-like aliens

    http://www.google.com/amp/s/futurism...telligence/amp
    So what part of my statement : " It is possible but extremely unlikely mathematically" do you not understand , oh, 'genius', Elias ?
    Last edited by Pendragon1; 2018-01-20 at 14:41.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendragon1 View Post
    So what part of my statement : " It is possible but extremely unlikely mathematically" do you not understand , oh, 'genius', Elias ?
    I understand it fine, but you haven't explained why it's mathematically unlikely, in evolutionary terms. There are definitely many other earth twins out there, which contain pretty much the same frequencies of chemical elements, hydrocarbons, fatty acids, amino acids, water and so on ("the stuff of life"), that our planet has, including the same primordial soup mix. So this boils down to evolution: explain why it's unlikely, in evolutionary terms, that there are humans elsewhere in the the universe. Do note, "unlikely" is also the wrong scientific answer.

    You know, sometimes, it's not as simple as "mathematics". Yeah sure, this is partially a mathematics question, but sometimes, actual knowledge is important too, to actually know what you're talking about
    Last edited by EliasAlucard; 2018-01-20 at 19:38.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaron View Post
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    Poland is a misunderstanding. It is a country which lies on the frontier between western and slavic world, and which combines elements of both.
    In fact, they are not even the Europeans in strict sense, meaning European as in bearing the responsibility and understanding of European interests. Poland has always been an subordinate country, on one side sucking German dick, on the other side -- Russian one, some kind of "novice" europeans, who are full of inferiority complexes, hysteria and obsessity neuroses. This is also true for all Baltic countries

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